Mid-90s S6 Avant - thoughts?
Discussion
What's the PH collective's view and experience of these? I'm talking about the old Audi 100 / original A6 shaped car. Like these:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1207942.htm
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1189030.htm
Are they expensive to maintain? Any key issues to look out for? Major weaknesses?
I want a daily driver that isn't mind numbingly dull, will do approx 5k miles p.a., mostly around London with the occasional M-way trip. I want plenty of space for lugging bikes and stuff, and either rwd or 4wd.
I've spent the last few weeks looking at various "interesting" estates (Passat 4motion / Syncro, Audi Allroad, BMW e34s etc), and the original S6 has just popped into the equation.
As ever, I'd welcome any PH wisdom.
Cheers
Wrighty
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1207942.htm
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1189030.htm
Are they expensive to maintain? Any key issues to look out for? Major weaknesses?
I want a daily driver that isn't mind numbingly dull, will do approx 5k miles p.a., mostly around London with the occasional M-way trip. I want plenty of space for lugging bikes and stuff, and either rwd or 4wd.
I've spent the last few weeks looking at various "interesting" estates (Passat 4motion / Syncro, Audi Allroad, BMW e34s etc), and the original S6 has just popped into the equation.
As ever, I'd welcome any PH wisdom.
Cheers
Wrighty
Fantastic cars but age is the main thing against them. Buy a good one and it will be great, buy a bad one and you will have big bills, although having said that, i would be more concerned about possible big bills on an Audi Allroad than one of these!!!
A lot of the late ones are autos which are ok reliability wise but blunt performance.
Basically buy one that is as close to mint as you can as spares are not plentiful and will cripple you from Audi. Engines are very strong so long as looked after but general trim, suspension, radiators and electrics will be you biggest age related concerns.
Very last ones had different wheels, black body trim and alcantara seats. RS2 colours were available too.
Economy will struggle above 22mpg at best in real world driving.
A lot of the late ones are autos which are ok reliability wise but blunt performance.
Basically buy one that is as close to mint as you can as spares are not plentiful and will cripple you from Audi. Engines are very strong so long as looked after but general trim, suspension, radiators and electrics will be you biggest age related concerns.
Very last ones had different wheels, black body trim and alcantara seats. RS2 colours were available too.
Economy will struggle above 22mpg at best in real world driving.
I ran one of these for 155,000miles. Actually, the 100S4 phase 2 which was pretty much identical to the S6, with big A8 brakes. Absolutely, without a doubt, the best car I've ever owned. I still miss it now, two years after it went.
Here are the weaknesses:
1 The clutch pedal mechanism can fail, almost invariably it seems at around 117,000 miles. Either the rod that operates the master cylinder breaks (twice on mine) which is cheap to fix but inconvenient. Or the pedal box itself can fracture, in which case it just needs welding up.
2 The Power Output Stages ("ignition amplifiers") seem to fail at around 140,000 miles. Coil packs can go at this mileage too and the symptoms are similar – intermittent rough uneven running at idle and under load. Relatively expensive to fix but fixes using 1.8 coil packs were a waste of time (for me - see below).
3 Diverter valves give up giving weak boost.
4 There's a hose to the intercooler knownas the "michelin man" hose. It can tear.
Other wise the damn thing seemed indestructible. I only got rid because my wife felt it wasn't right for me to be driving to some pretty prestigious clients in a 13 year old estate car that was in all honesty starting to look visually a bit tired.
I had the MTM stage one chip giving around 280bhp and huge torque. Obviously it wasn't as fast as an RS2 BUT it was pretty close on the road, and much more spacious. 280bhp doesn't sound alot but compared to something like the newer S6 / RS6 these things are light and nimble, they don't rely on fancy systems to get them around bends, and they are very swift indeed. Plus they sound great. People criticise them for over assisted steering but once you get used to a finger and thumb technique rather than clenched fists it is very chuckable, and obviously grips like the proverbial. Has the proper quattro system with real mechanical diff lock, which basically means it puts down all the power, rather than the electronic diff locks Audi use now which wind back the power until something grips.
Early 100S4s had weird brakes and weak gearboxes - avoid them. Later car had progressively uprated gearboxes and by S6 you should have no problems in this direction. The weird brakes went early on.
Some very late S6s were imported to S6plus spec EXCEPT without the 4.2 V8 that the plus had in europe. Most of these that I've seen have been autos. The auto loses a fair bit of performance to the manual, and the manual box is quite peachy, lovely action. These cars were beautifully trimmed however.
ETA Just looked at that green one, if I had the space and the cash I'd be buying. One other thing to add is that some parts for these can be hard to get. In fact I had to wait four months for an A/C rad in 2001. Audi are not good at supporting their older models which is one of the reasons I don't drive one now.
Here are the weaknesses:
1 The clutch pedal mechanism can fail, almost invariably it seems at around 117,000 miles. Either the rod that operates the master cylinder breaks (twice on mine) which is cheap to fix but inconvenient. Or the pedal box itself can fracture, in which case it just needs welding up.
2 The Power Output Stages ("ignition amplifiers") seem to fail at around 140,000 miles. Coil packs can go at this mileage too and the symptoms are similar – intermittent rough uneven running at idle and under load. Relatively expensive to fix but fixes using 1.8 coil packs were a waste of time (for me - see below).
3 Diverter valves give up giving weak boost.
4 There's a hose to the intercooler knownas the "michelin man" hose. It can tear.
Other wise the damn thing seemed indestructible. I only got rid because my wife felt it wasn't right for me to be driving to some pretty prestigious clients in a 13 year old estate car that was in all honesty starting to look visually a bit tired.
I had the MTM stage one chip giving around 280bhp and huge torque. Obviously it wasn't as fast as an RS2 BUT it was pretty close on the road, and much more spacious. 280bhp doesn't sound alot but compared to something like the newer S6 / RS6 these things are light and nimble, they don't rely on fancy systems to get them around bends, and they are very swift indeed. Plus they sound great. People criticise them for over assisted steering but once you get used to a finger and thumb technique rather than clenched fists it is very chuckable, and obviously grips like the proverbial. Has the proper quattro system with real mechanical diff lock, which basically means it puts down all the power, rather than the electronic diff locks Audi use now which wind back the power until something grips.
Early 100S4s had weird brakes and weak gearboxes - avoid them. Later car had progressively uprated gearboxes and by S6 you should have no problems in this direction. The weird brakes went early on.
Some very late S6s were imported to S6plus spec EXCEPT without the 4.2 V8 that the plus had in europe. Most of these that I've seen have been autos. The auto loses a fair bit of performance to the manual, and the manual box is quite peachy, lovely action. These cars were beautifully trimmed however.
ETA Just looked at that green one, if I had the space and the cash I'd be buying. One other thing to add is that some parts for these can be hard to get. In fact I had to wait four months for an A/C rad in 2001. Audi are not good at supporting their older models which is one of the reasons I don't drive one now.
Edited by Yertis on Saturday 29th August 23:10
Edited by Yertis on Tuesday 1st September 18:03
k, get one.quattro The above is a pretty good summary. There is a wealth of knowledge for these still around of the internet. I currently am "trying"! to restore my daily runner v sport. But for lugging bikes fun/ build i am seriously considering an S4/ S6 avant as well. I have had a C4 platformed 10v for a month and being a mountain biker it slides straight in no wheels off, the S2/RS2 avant is a lot smaller opening and needs a wheel off, ie less practical. They tend to be not as modified as the S2. The engine codes are slightly different to the 80 based cars as the turbo pipework has less awkward routing but major components are the same. Given the size most of these i have seen are near original and in good condition.
Also concur on the green one, great looking example with all the options i would want. But these tend to be less sought after than the S2 as they are a bit heavier but not a lot. Even although they are rarer. Personally i prefer the toys/ space of the larger cars. There is also the very rare S6plus which is a manual V8 and was built by quattro gmbh (who build the Audi RS cars) but i have only ever seen one real one for sale in the UK. They were never imported here. There is also a slightly less rare 4.2V8 S6 of the same era as well. But for reliability these should be fine especially with history as well, i have seen a few people picking up bargain S3/4/6's and having to spend quite a bit getting them up to spec, i would opt for a well kept car in the first place.
Engine wise these are rock solid strong hence why so many end up being wound up and original ones are becoming a hard find.
edit:: if your looking for others for sale, sometimes called the UrS6 as well.
Also concur on the green one, great looking example with all the options i would want. But these tend to be less sought after than the S2 as they are a bit heavier but not a lot. Even although they are rarer. Personally i prefer the toys/ space of the larger cars. There is also the very rare S6plus which is a manual V8 and was built by quattro gmbh (who build the Audi RS cars) but i have only ever seen one real one for sale in the UK. They were never imported here. There is also a slightly less rare 4.2V8 S6 of the same era as well. But for reliability these should be fine especially with history as well, i have seen a few people picking up bargain S3/4/6's and having to spend quite a bit getting them up to spec, i would opt for a well kept car in the first place.
Engine wise these are rock solid strong hence why so many end up being wound up and original ones are becoming a hard find.
edit:: if your looking for others for sale, sometimes called the UrS6 as well.
Edited by istoo on Monday 31st August 09:40
Agree with all Yertis said. The coil packs/ amplifiers are staggeringly, mind meltingly expensive (as are a lot of Audi parts). From having one of each fail on mine, i seem to recall them being £400 each (5 coils and 2 (3?) amps).
Electric fan relays can fail, at best making the A/C useless in traffic, at worst overheating. These also work with the clever afterrrun system, an electic coolant pump and the engine fan. It runs after the engine is turned off if the engine temp is over a certain level. If it doesn't, then pay attention to the turbo.
Avoid anything that has been tuned unless it's done either from the factory (like Yertis's) or well documented by a tuner YOU trust. If the wastegate cap is missing to expose the screwhead then run like you're in a Usain Bolt impersonation contest. The only reason to remove it is to bodge the boost level, and it's not easy to get off so won't have been removed mistakenly.
Mine had the wierd brakes (UFO) which were fine if you only needed to brake once every 5 minutes. Got very hot very fast and faded horribly. The rear had traditional disks that didn't fade, with hilarious results.
Turbo hoses are starting to perish now, budget £150+ for each of the 3 hoses from Audi and a 14 day wait for shipping.
Despite all this, buy one. They're truly excellent cars, importantly from my point of view they're the only S6 with a manual gearbox.
Electric fan relays can fail, at best making the A/C useless in traffic, at worst overheating. These also work with the clever afterrrun system, an electic coolant pump and the engine fan. It runs after the engine is turned off if the engine temp is over a certain level. If it doesn't, then pay attention to the turbo.
Avoid anything that has been tuned unless it's done either from the factory (like Yertis's) or well documented by a tuner YOU trust. If the wastegate cap is missing to expose the screwhead then run like you're in a Usain Bolt impersonation contest. The only reason to remove it is to bodge the boost level, and it's not easy to get off so won't have been removed mistakenly.
Mine had the wierd brakes (UFO) which were fine if you only needed to brake once every 5 minutes. Got very hot very fast and faded horribly. The rear had traditional disks that didn't fade, with hilarious results.
Turbo hoses are starting to perish now, budget £150+ for each of the 3 hoses from Audi and a 14 day wait for shipping.
Despite all this, buy one. They're truly excellent cars, importantly from my point of view they're the only S6 with a manual gearbox.
agent006 said:
The coil packs/ amplifiers are staggeringly, mind meltingly expensive (as are a lot of Audi parts). From having one of each fail on mine, i seem to recall them being £400 each (5 coils and 2 (3?) amps).
From memory the amps are about £130 each (two off) and the coil packs are about £80 each (five off). When they start to go you need to do the lot. So a lot of money.Worth it though. When the magic "2.4" came up in the digital boost gauge that thing would really shift. Actually I don't think the S6 had the digital boost gauge.(Actually it must have done because one of the descriptions says it does, I think it was the US versions that didn't have the boost readout.)
Very discrete too, surprised alot of people
Edited by Yertis on Tuesday 1st September 22:51
agent006 said:
istoo said:
I know a few guys with urS4/S6's with 034motorsport coilpacks, these seem popular/reliable.
I believe Yertis is speaking from experience with his warnings against these.The problem with the 034 kit (which is very neatly made BTW, no problem with it in principle) is that it was unable to deal with my MTM mapping, and under high boost conditions I would get a horrendous misfire. The supplier suggested that this was a known problem with chipped cars. There are workarounds I believe using the 034 kit but I took the cowards way out and shelled out to Audi. In fact my coils were OK, I just needed the amps. Based on Agent006's experience I'm pretty sure that the coils would have been next to give up the ghost.
The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
Yertis said:
The problem with the 034 kit (which is very neatly made BTW, no problem with it in principle) is that it was unable to deal with my MTM mapping, and under high boost conditions I would get a horrendous misfire. The supplier suggested that this was a known problem with chipped cars. There are workarounds I believe using the 034 kit but I took the cowards way out and shelled out to Audi. In fact my coils were OK, I just needed the amps. Based on Agent006's experience I'm pretty sure that the coils would have been next to give up the ghost.
The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
fair comment! Marks urS6 avant, infact both have ran an MTM hybrid turbo, with an MTM chip in the current one. He is now running 034 coil-packs to my knowledge without fault, I know there are the 1.8T based setup other chap also said stay clear of those. But they also have a high output coilpack designed specifically for the high power urS4/uR. The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
Forgive me if i am out of line, but fair comment on the S2/4/6 avants is that the engine is in good fettle, i have seen collegues spend insane sums getting "cheap" cars up to standard. And in some cases giving up. Its worth forking out for the right, well looked after car in the first place. I have been slowly growing towards them as well. Being an S4/S6 i am guessing they will have had an easier life than the S2's generally. Am i talking myself into one here? Perhaps.
istoo said:
Yertis said:
The problem with the 034 kit (which is very neatly made BTW, no problem with it in principle) is that it was unable to deal with my MTM mapping, and under high boost conditions I would get a horrendous misfire. The supplier suggested that this was a known problem with chipped cars. There are workarounds I believe using the 034 kit but I took the cowards way out and shelled out to Audi. In fact my coils were OK, I just needed the amps. Based on Agent006's experience I'm pretty sure that the coils would have been next to give up the ghost.
The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
fair comment! Marks urS6 avant, infact both have ran an MTM hybrid turbo, with an MTM chip in the current one. He is now running 034 coil-packs to my knowledge without fault, I know there are the 1.8T based setup other chap also said stay clear of those. But they also have a high output coilpack designed specifically for the high power urS4/uR. The other problem I found with the 034 kit is that the coils just sit in the top of the cam cover, and the nice Audi coil pack cover can't be used as it causes the A4 coils to overheat. I cant remember what the workaround for this was in detail but it involved some malarky with mounting the coils on the firewall and I wasn't about to start down that route just to save a couple of hundred quid. I had to fabricate a piece of bar to hold all the coils down in place because they kept popping out.
All that said I know a lot of guys in the US have used the 034 kit successfully, so I think my problems were mainly down to the quite aggressive MTM mapping.
Forgive me if i am out of line, but fair comment on the S2/4/6 avants is that the engine is in good fettle, i have seen collegues spend insane sums getting "cheap" cars up to standard. And in some cases giving up. Its worth forking out for the right, well looked after car in the first place. I have been slowly growing towards them as well. Being an S4/S6 i am guessing they will have had an easier life than the S2's generally. Am i talking myself into one here? Perhaps.
One other thing to consider is that the estate version (Audi called this one an estate, not an avant) has a rear anti-roll bar and is reputed to be tighter handling than the saloon as a consequence. Never having driven a saloon I can't verify this.
Chaps - thank you very much indeed for all the feedback. This place is bloody brilliant. And sorry for the delay in responding - I ended up away from a computer for the weekend.
So summing up, there's a few key issues to look out for (helpfully listed above), but on the whole a massive thumbs up: cool, quick and solid but best to go for a standard car.
I'm a little nervous of the costs - I know I should expect a 15 year old, £35k car to be expensive to keep on the road, but the sensible part of me is saying "keep it simple". Fortunately, the sensible part of me doesn't often get involved in car buying decisions.
Well if the green one is still for sale at the weekend, I'm off to have a look at it.
So summing up, there's a few key issues to look out for (helpfully listed above), but on the whole a massive thumbs up: cool, quick and solid but best to go for a standard car.
I'm a little nervous of the costs - I know I should expect a 15 year old, £35k car to be expensive to keep on the road, but the sensible part of me is saying "keep it simple". Fortunately, the sensible part of me doesn't often get involved in car buying decisions.
Well if the green one is still for sale at the weekend, I'm off to have a look at it.
some of this will apply, Mike Dewars buyers guide for the S2.
http://www.s2-audi.co.uk/tech_articles/buyers.htm
i have been in a few variants of this engine with the quickest being one built for hill climbing, proper turbo lag thump! Very strong engines on the whole, capable of galactic power, a few nutty Scandinavian ones circa 1000bhp. All depends how deep your pockets are!
http://www.s2-audi.co.uk/tech_articles/buyers.htm
i have been in a few variants of this engine with the quickest being one built for hill climbing, proper turbo lag thump! Very strong engines on the whole, capable of galactic power, a few nutty Scandinavian ones circa 1000bhp. All depends how deep your pockets are!
as you can see its a 93 urS4 avant, with the 6 speed box.
riding on H&R springs and HP2 struts.
MTM chip
Stromberg exhaust from manifold back, which sounds fantastic.
Has S6 avus but I also have the original wheels as well.
Going on the data sticker it never had roof rails, but it came with a spare set if i wish to sintall them, and the OEM boot spolier.
Full leather interior and carbon trim.
Running S6 brakes and calipers as well.
Bosch 005 fuel pump
Some fancy DV which is adjustable, dumps to atmosphere which i think may actually be robbing power.
But personally i might put it back to standard springs its very hard.
A few wee niggles to sort out but on the whole i am very happy and it can press on for a big old bus.
Edited by istoo on Monday 19th October 10:43
Edited by istoo on Monday 19th October 10:47
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