Torqu Flow Kit

[doppioexpresso]

What do you guys think of this:

http://www.torquev8.com/products.html

Sounds like pretty cool mod. to me. Can somebody give me some info about this?

Thanks

[lewis_sharman]

Try a search on here, there have been quite a few people on here that have it and are happy with the results. DBV8 is the only one that springs to mind atm though.

Maybe send him a PM?

[V8 GRF]

Nigel Print (Tavan) on here has had it fitted and is also a fan.
If you're in the TVRCC there was a write up on this in the March issue.

[chr1sb]

Be interesting to see if Eann is prepared to travel to Switzerland to set it up though !! He charges by the mile, so you will end up with one hell of a bill if he is. I've had it done, along with about 40 or so others I believe. PM me if you are still interested.

Chris

[V8 GRF]

He's up to 60 now I believe.

[spitfire4v8]

He's done a few in my workshop, always a pleasure to work with Eann another one coming in the next week i believe aswell. They're certainly big sellers!

[blitzracing]

Its worth bearing in mind how these things work. The stock AFM electronics and hot wire sensor are simply put into the bigger pipe, but in doing so the AFM voltages are now significantly altered for any given airflow. It would be possible to remap the ECU to cope with this, but as we know the hardware required to do this is very rare. So next best thing is to take a fuel map that is already done (say for a bigger engine) that has a fuel response that in the opposite to the new airflow characteristics, so the two help cancel each other out. i.e. if fitting the Torqueflow runs lean at higher RPM, then fit a already produced fuel map that already runs richer to compensate. As the maps can't be tweaked by Torqueflow, the AFM electronics is then adjusted to alter the airflow voltage at given points to try and keep the mixture within a controllable range so the ECU can still adjust for the errors using the Lambda feedback. This tweaking of variable resistors is what takes the time, as it requires road testing while checking the lambda feedback at many loads. The 14cux ECU is VERY tolerant to abuse like this, and this is why these units can be made to work at all in this relatively crude fashion. Its also worth considering the proper larger Bosch AFM, and the correct chip to go with it as a much better option, as you then don’t have to worry about manually set analogue settings going out of range. There is a risk here that the fact that the Torqueflow big and shiny and Eann is a nice guy over shadows any finesse required in accurate fuelling.

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 1st September 12:48

[blitzracing]

lewis_sharman said:

Try a search on here, there have been quite a few people on here that have it and are happy with the results. DBV8 is the only one that springs to mind atm though.

Maybe send him a PM?

One significant post has been removed as it was perceived as name and shame. Check out also a post from Mark Adams about AFM design that explains just how complex this issue is. V8 GRF do you have one fitted as you seem to be a fan of this product?

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 1st September 12:55

[spend]

blitzracing said:

.. over shadows any finesse required in accurate fuelling.

So have you now changed your tune and concluded that the only solution is to have fine control of the fuel map? In which case you either pay MA or lose the AFM

[spitfire4v8]

Irrespective of the "hammer to crack a nut" approach you infer the TF does work! Also although its true that no ecu mapping takes place during the installation, is it incorrect to say that Eann cannot change the fuel map in the chip? Doesnt he have a selection of chips to choose from which he has altered himself? - I assume this means that the trimming on the AFM electronics is then the minimum required to get the job done, though that is speculation on my part, i freely admit all this electronics trickery goes over my head! Weren't you working on a similar/rival product Blitz or did I imagine that in the midsts of time, apologies if i got the wrong end of that stick

Edited by spitfire4v8 on Tuesday 1st September 13:01

[Golflion]

blitzracing said:

Its worth bearing in mind how these things work. The stock AFM electronics and hot wire sensor are simply put into the bigger pipe, but in doing so the AFM voltages are now significantly altered for any given airflow. It would be possible to remap the ECU to cope with this, but as we know the hardware required to do this is very rare. So next best thing is to take a fuel map that is already done (say for a bigger engine) that has a fuel response that in the opposite to the new airflow characteristics, so the two help cancel each other out. i.e. if fitting the Torqueflow runs lean at higher RPM, then fit a already produced fuel map that already runs richer to compensate. As the maps can't be tweaked by Torqueflow, the AFM electronics is then adjusted to alter the airflow voltage at given points to try and keep the mixture within a controllable range so the ECU can still adjust for the errors using the Lambda feedback. This tweaking of variable resistors is what takes the time, as it requires road testing while checking the lambda feedback at many loads. The 14cux ECU is VERY tolerant to abuse like this, and this is why these units can be made to work at all in this relatively crude fashion. Its also worth considering the proper larger Bosch AFM, and the correct chip to go with it as a much better option, as you then don’t have to worry about manually set analogue settings going out of range. There is a risk here that the fact that the Torqueflow big and shiny and Eann is a nice guy over shadows any finesse required in accurate fuelling.

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 1st September 12:48

If you don't go down the Torque flow line, what is the alternative,seems reading this there is another option that is as good,at what cost?

[900T-R]

ACT offers kits nowadays for 400/430/450/500 models consisting of a Bosch AFM, 71 mm throttle plenum & smooth bore elbow, trumpets or 45 mm trumpet base + ported manifold depending on application, and Mark Adams chip mapped for the specific application.

[leaderb]

I had my 4.0HC done a few months ago and I'm very pleased with it. Low speed shunting has been eliminated and it's also improved the throttle response. All in all it's a much more enjoyable car to drive now.

[blitzracing]

spend said:

blitzracing said:

.. over shadows any finesse required in accurate fuelling.

So have you now changed your tune and concluded that the only solution is to have fine control of the fuel map? In which case you either pay MA or lose the AFM

Absolutley, I have tried and failed to significantly make any gains by boring out the stock AFM and teeking the electronics. You would not know it "did not work" as the engines run OK, but after V8 developments spent some time testing them on the rollers, they could not make any power gains, which in my book is what counts, not simply saying its got a bigger hole in it there for you must be getting more power. I would not try marketing a product unless I was 100% happy it did what it said on the tin!

[blitzracing]

spitfire4v8 said:

Irrespective of the "hammer to crack a nut" approach you infer the TF does work! Also although its true that no ecu mapping takes place during the installation, is it incorrect to say that Eann cannot change the fuel map in the chip? Doesnt he have a selection of chips to choose from which he has altered himself? - I assume this means that the trimming on the AFM electronics is then the minimum required to get the job done, though that is speculation on my part, i freely admit all this electronics trickery goes over my head! Weren't you working on a similar/rival product Blitz or did I imagine that in the midsts of time, apologies if i got the wrong end of that stick

Edited by spitfire4v8 on Tuesday 1st September 13:01

This was why the previous post was removed so I have to be careful here, but if Eann can alter the maps, then why mess around with trimming the AFM's??. I know Mark Adams having spent many years chipping these engines can now alter the fuel maps with just an Eprom Emulator, but for the rest of us you would need the Lucas development hardware to show what the mapping doing at a fueling level, as the maps are very complex, and the data on what the various locations do simply is not available if you where to try and do it manually. I have messed around with the Lucas as Ive already said, but saw no actual gains in power, so I dropped the idea.

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 1st September 15:33

[spitfire4v8]

.. makes you wonder why there's a market for the larger bosch AFMs or indeed getting rid of the AFM altogether. How strange. Are you saying we've been imagining all these HP increases from removing the 5am AFM restriction all these years then? Most bizarre. I must get dyno dynamics to test my dyno out asap as it's quite obviously f*cked

[spend]

Hmmmm Joo, muddy waters been splashed

[V8 GRF]

spitfire4v8 said:

Irrespective of the "hammer to crack a nut" approach you infer the TF does work! Also although its true that no ecu mapping takes place during the installation, is it incorrect to say that Eann cannot change the fuel map in the chip? Doesnt he have a selection of chips to choose from which he has altered himself? - I assume this means that the trimming on the AFM electronics is then the minimum required to get the job done, though that is speculation on my part, i freely admit all this electronics trickery goes over my head! Weren't you working on a similar/rival product Blitz or did I imagine that in the midsts of time, apologies if i got the wrong end of that stick

Eann does indeed have a selection of chips that he can fit and then he trims the electronics in the AFM to 'fine tune' the car. It works on the cars I've seen the work done to and it definately makes the car smoother and in the case of Nigel Print's car he was wandering round the Growl carpark after his RR session like a Cheshire cat after his otherwise standard car gave a reading of 297bhp iirc.

Eann has been over to see if he could fit his kit to my already modified car, unfortunately the non standard large injectors caused an issue and he couldn't get the mix right with his chip(s) and the AFM wouldn't work with the MA chip. He did find a problem with one of my lambdas though so that's solved an idle issue I had & it's helped a little with my overfuelling issues. I need to make some decisions as to the way forward with my car before I invest in anything.

ETA I'd suggest the veiled suggestion that anything untoward with regards to copyright is going on here is squashed right now as the maps on Eanns chips are standard TVR chips and the 'fine tuning' is done by the AFM adjustmets. As as been pointed out larger AFMs work and Eann has developed a way of refining that improvement.

Edited by V8 GRF on Tuesday 1st September 14:55

[blitzracing]

Im afraid its not that simple, as the AFM hits staturation on the bigger engines at 5 volts, so the mapping is frigged to use only RPM and TPS once the AFM has peaked. A bigger hole lets in more air, but the AFM voltage drops with reduced air velocity, so if you raise the voltage to match the origional AFM output, it will just hit 5 volts again. If you dont alter the voltage, the standard map does not know to put in extra fuel on the based on the new AFM output, and it needs a remap to optimise the set up. On smaller engines (say sub 240 bhp) you may make some small gains as you dont hit the 5 volt limit, and the stock mapping may allow extra fuel in between say 4.5 and 5 volts.

[spend]

As soon as the standard map goes open loop, it has no idea how much fuel it puts in anyway!!! It only knows how long it opens the injectors.....