Discussion
I bought a newly finished Royale Sabre in June and got it through the SVA (last car to go through SVA before IVA came in) and registered it in July and it's now on the road and running fine. Very pretty little car and a joy to drive soemthing basic rather than modern cars once in a while and to get back to what driving was/should be.
So far it's done about 500 miles and although it's OK, acceleration isn't that good. It's got a Ford Sierra 1.8CVH engine and a five speed manual box and does struggle a bit. I'm in mind to change the engine over the winter and would welcome any suggestions. For those who don't know the Sabre it looks a bit like a Morgan and is OK for room under the bonnet to fit something else. I know of several other Sabre's that have got Ford V6's out of Granada's and one with a V8 though I'd guess that must be a bit of a squeeze. If you want to see what the Sabre looks like have a look on www.royaleownersclub.org.uk
I'm not looking for earth shattering boy racer performance but a reasonable 0-60 would be nice - say around 6 or 7 secs? Top speed not at all important, I never go over 85mph. Oh and power steeering and an auto box would be nice.
So would say a Scorpio or Mondeo engine/box bolt straight in on the existing Sierra mounts? Or any other engine/box combination preferred?
I might have access to a BMW 3 series engine/box out of a crashed car but not sure if theres some damage to the engine, but would fitting it be more problematical? Or what else is there rear wheel drive?
So far it's done about 500 miles and although it's OK, acceleration isn't that good. It's got a Ford Sierra 1.8CVH engine and a five speed manual box and does struggle a bit. I'm in mind to change the engine over the winter and would welcome any suggestions. For those who don't know the Sabre it looks a bit like a Morgan and is OK for room under the bonnet to fit something else. I know of several other Sabre's that have got Ford V6's out of Granada's and one with a V8 though I'd guess that must be a bit of a squeeze. If you want to see what the Sabre looks like have a look on www.royaleownersclub.org.uk
I'm not looking for earth shattering boy racer performance but a reasonable 0-60 would be nice - say around 6 or 7 secs? Top speed not at all important, I never go over 85mph. Oh and power steeering and an auto box would be nice.
So would say a Scorpio or Mondeo engine/box bolt straight in on the existing Sierra mounts? Or any other engine/box combination preferred?
I might have access to a BMW 3 series engine/box out of a crashed car but not sure if theres some damage to the engine, but would fitting it be more problematical? Or what else is there rear wheel drive?
at first i would investigate what ratio the final drive diff. has.
if the diff is a "long" one you can put a 200BHP engine in and it will still feel poor in acceleration.
i recently "organized" a robin-hood seven for a friend, its based on a sierra running gear and wondered how poor the pinto runs. checked diff ratio and was shocked: 3.3
so everything was clear. changed to a 3.9 and it goes like a rocket, compared to before. as it already came with a five speed box even motorway is still ok.
what gearbox do you have? T9?
when you are driving 70miles/h how much does the engine rev?
if the diff is a "long" one you can put a 200BHP engine in and it will still feel poor in acceleration.
i recently "organized" a robin-hood seven for a friend, its based on a sierra running gear and wondered how poor the pinto runs. checked diff ratio and was shocked: 3.3
so everything was clear. changed to a 3.9 and it goes like a rocket, compared to before. as it already came with a five speed box even motorway is still ok.
what gearbox do you have? T9?
when you are driving 70miles/h how much does the engine rev?
Edited by Comadis on Tuesday 15th September 20:12
ColinM50 said:
So would say a Scorpio or Mondeo engine/box bolt straight in on the existing Sierra mounts? Or any other engine/box combination preferred?
The Mondeo engine is transverse front wheel drive, so NFG for your car as a unit. The engine on its own will fit the box you already have as long as you sort out the correct clutch set-up.The chances of a different engine fitting the existing mounts are so small as to be safely ignored. You will need to get the enigne in there, then fabricate mounts to suit.
Thanks everyone for your advice. Sam 68 and Silvenan suggested a straight 6. From where? And yes a straight 6 sounds nice but then so does a V8 (tee hee). Personally I'd lean towards a V6 but apart from Granada not sure where from.
Comadis, re final drive ratio, at 70 in fifth it's doing dead on 2,600. 3,000 at 80 so what does that give a diff ratio as?. Singlecoil, yes I guess I can fabricate engine mounts, but it'd be so much easier to just drop a new engine and box straight in wouldn't it.
I've also spoken with Northampton Motorsport with a view to changing the carb to one or two Webers and their advice is that the 1.8 CVH engine isn't really strong enough to modify and they recommend upgrading to a 2 litre Zetec. Apparantly the 1.8 CVH put out 90bhp when new and they'd guess mine would be around 75 now whereas the standard 2.0 Zetec is 120 in basic form and then easily modified to almost whatever I want - 200 isn't too hard/expensive to acheive. 120 I reckon would do me fine. Looking on e-bay I can pick up a brand new one for £650 so what, say £1,200 all fitted? Not a lot of money for a lot of engine/power and though i could do the work myself a bad back means I'm quite prepared to pay someone to do all this.
Any advice from anyone?
Comadis, re final drive ratio, at 70 in fifth it's doing dead on 2,600. 3,000 at 80 so what does that give a diff ratio as?. Singlecoil, yes I guess I can fabricate engine mounts, but it'd be so much easier to just drop a new engine and box straight in wouldn't it.
I've also spoken with Northampton Motorsport with a view to changing the carb to one or two Webers and their advice is that the 1.8 CVH engine isn't really strong enough to modify and they recommend upgrading to a 2 litre Zetec. Apparantly the 1.8 CVH put out 90bhp when new and they'd guess mine would be around 75 now whereas the standard 2.0 Zetec is 120 in basic form and then easily modified to almost whatever I want - 200 isn't too hard/expensive to acheive. 120 I reckon would do me fine. Looking on e-bay I can pick up a brand new one for £650 so what, say £1,200 all fitted? Not a lot of money for a lot of engine/power and though i could do the work myself a bad back means I'm quite prepared to pay someone to do all this.
Any advice from anyone?
A BMW straight 6 sounds great but I would expect it to be quite a costly and involved installation.
I think a Ford V6 would be a good option as this was one of the original engine options for the build was it not? If so perhaps off the shelf parts and plans are available for this conversion. Essex V6's are cheap though I would expect to have to change the front springs for the extra weight.
I suppose a Zetec may be the easiest and most economical option (1800s are very cheap to buy) but I think I would hanker after six cylinders to match the cars looks..
I think a Ford V6 would be a good option as this was one of the original engine options for the build was it not? If so perhaps off the shelf parts and plans are available for this conversion. Essex V6's are cheap though I would expect to have to change the front springs for the extra weight.
I suppose a Zetec may be the easiest and most economical option (1800s are very cheap to buy) but I think I would hanker after six cylinders to match the cars looks..
dispite loveing the sound of v6s and v8s (got a v6 atm)
a 2L zetec on twin 40s or 45s with a coil pack and speperate ecu for the igniton would be my personal choice as it will fit the gearbox , its a common convertion in the ford rwd and kit car world so there are plenty of parts about
ps i like the looks as well
Dan
a 2L zetec on twin 40s or 45s with a coil pack and speperate ecu for the igniton would be my personal choice as it will fit the gearbox , its a common convertion in the ford rwd and kit car world so there are plenty of parts about
ps i like the looks as well
Dan
ColinM50 said:
Thanks everyone for your advice. Sam 68 and Silvenan suggested a straight 6. From where?
Like I said, BMW or Vauxhall Carlton/Senator would be the obvious choices. Neither should cost you more than £500 for the whole donor car... sell the bits you don't need (and your old engine/gearbox) on E-bay and you might even make a profit. 
"70 in fifth it's doing dead on 2,600"
i can only esimtate the diff ratio, as i dont have your exact wheel circumfirence.
anyway: it seams to be a long diff (ratio 3,38 or even 3,14)...as i expected...and thats the reason of your poor acceleration....especially as your engine has 1800cc only.
try to source a 3,92 diff and you will "feel" the differnce immediately.
another thing to check: you are sure that your speedo shows the correct value?
if the tyre size isnt the same as on the donor car the speedo shows wrong.
i can only esimtate the diff ratio, as i dont have your exact wheel circumfirence.
anyway: it seams to be a long diff (ratio 3,38 or even 3,14)...as i expected...and thats the reason of your poor acceleration....especially as your engine has 1800cc only.
try to source a 3,92 diff and you will "feel" the differnce immediately.
another thing to check: you are sure that your speedo shows the correct value?
if the tyre size isnt the same as on the donor car the speedo shows wrong.
Edited by Comadis on Sunday 20th September 13:37
Edited by Comadis on Monday 21st September 14:39
Comadis said:
or a 4litre V6 from the Ford Explorer. cheap, reliable and powerfull
this engine is cologne based..so all ford gearboxes fit...but the power-output has nothing to do with these lazy, old cologne-engines.
Is a 4-litre truck engine really less lazy than the 2.9 Cologne in standard form? The 170bhp (well, on a very good day) variant in the TVR was quite lively.this engine is cologne based..so all ford gearboxes fit...but the power-output has nothing to do with these lazy, old cologne-engines.
Is the Explorer unit just bored out and re-worked ancillaries? If it's a similar weight then it could be quite fun with a suitable calibration.
There are plenty of older BMW 3 series about with a straight 6 with manual or auto gearbox, 2.5 or 2.8 have plenty of torque and very smooth. They are injection though so a bit more work to fit but well worth it.
Alternatively other 6's include the old Triumph 2500 - that came with auto too and most of them are rust buckets, would be nice to see a transplant using one of those, twin SU or strombergs probably, not much power but nice torque.
Older Jag 4.2 would be nice but it's a big engine and heavy.
Japanese maybe . . . Datsun Laural or whatever they were called. Or if you fancy a V8 buy a Lexus LS400 . . . plenty about for £1500 with great engines, all were auto, 240 bhp out of the box, pretty quick and several really good forums for transplant info.
Alternatively other 6's include the old Triumph 2500 - that came with auto too and most of them are rust buckets, would be nice to see a transplant using one of those, twin SU or strombergs probably, not much power but nice torque.
Older Jag 4.2 would be nice but it's a big engine and heavy.
Japanese maybe . . . Datsun Laural or whatever they were called. Or if you fancy a V8 buy a Lexus LS400 . . . plenty about for £1500 with great engines, all were auto, 240 bhp out of the box, pretty quick and several really good forums for transplant info.
Well, if its any help at all.....converted our Xflow powered Westy to a box-stock 2l Zetec. Went from about 130bhp (when I first built the engine back in '91) to 170bhp (measured on the rollers when mapping). Apart from fitting a decent exhaust and TB injection (GSXR 600 TB DIY job), nothing mod-wise was done to the motor. I paid £150 for it, spent a few quid on a new oil pump and a new set of lifters (precautionary). I stripped the engine to check it out, as it's history was unknown and it was the apocryphal 'like new' inside. Just put it back together with fresh gaskets. Needed an 1800 flywheel and suitable clutch, inlet manifold, low-line sump and a water rail, but overall it was reasonably economic. If you stuck with the OE plenum injection it wouldn't make quite as much power, but it would be a lot cheaper initially.
Going up from <90bhp to 170 or so would feel pretty good, although I absolutely concur with the ideas that if your speedo is accurate, you need a higher ratio diff to get the revs up - makes a massive difference.
...but a 6 sounds good too
HTH
Going up from <90bhp to 170 or so would feel pretty good, although I absolutely concur with the ideas that if your speedo is accurate, you need a higher ratio diff to get the revs up - makes a massive difference.
...but a 6 sounds good too
HTH
Hmm some really thought provoking ideas here. So maybe not the simple way out of bunging in the Zetec? You've all got me thinking.
And re the speedo accuracy, forgot to mentioin that I put new wheels on it, tyres are 215/55 R17's so they're not the standard Sierra size. Guess that'll affect the speedo accuracy and also the 0-60 time will be out 'cos it won't be readng 60 will it? Can anyone do the maths?
And stubby Pete, all the mechanicals are out of a 1.8 Sierra.
And re the speedo accuracy, forgot to mentioin that I put new wheels on it, tyres are 215/55 R17's so they're not the standard Sierra size. Guess that'll affect the speedo accuracy and also the 0-60 time will be out 'cos it won't be readng 60 will it? Can anyone do the maths?
And stubby Pete, all the mechanicals are out of a 1.8 Sierra.
CorseChris said:
Well, if its any help at all.....converted our Xflow powered Westy to a box-stock 2l Zetec. Went from about 130bhp (when I first built the engine back in '91) to 170bhp (measured on the rollers when mapping). Apart from fitting a decent exhaust and TB injection (GSXR 600 TB DIY job), nothing mod-wise was done to the motor. I paid £150 for it, spent a few quid on a new oil pump and a new set of lifters (precautionary). I stripped the engine to check it out, as it's history was unknown and it was the apocryphal 'like new' inside. Just put it back together with fresh gaskets. Needed an 1800 flywheel and suitable clutch, inlet manifold, low-line sump and a water rail, but overall it was reasonably economic. If you stuck with the OE plenum injection it wouldn't make quite as much power, but it would be a lot cheaper initially.
Going up from <90bhp to 170 or so would feel pretty good, although I absolutely concur with the ideas that if your speedo is accurate, you need a higher ratio diff to get the revs up - makes a massive difference.
...but a 6 sounds good too
HTH
I think a screaming 4 works beautifully in something like a Westie, but I reckon a Royale needs something a bit more old school. In the absence of any straight eights (the ultimate vintage supercar motor), a straight six would be spot on. Just think of the SS Jaguars and so on. Going up from <90bhp to 170 or so would feel pretty good, although I absolutely concur with the ideas that if your speedo is accurate, you need a higher ratio diff to get the revs up - makes a massive difference.
...but a 6 sounds good too
HTH
Chris71 said:
straight eights
You make a good point. The OP should just buy this and make a proper job of it;http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SUPERCHARGED-STRAIGHT-EIGHT-...
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