Attendance slide
Discussion
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78666
Don't think it's the 'show' that's the problem. They need to go to the right locations and charge a realistic price. The current model with Bernie charging as much as he can get away with and taking no risk on ticket sales in unacceptable. It forces out traditional circuits that once had good attendance in favour of government backed tracks with empty grandstands but as long as Bernie gets a higher price it's seen as a success.
brierleys said:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78666
Don't think it's the 'show' that's the problem. They need to go to the right locations and charge a realistic price. The current model with Bernie charging as much as he can get away with and taking no risk on ticket sales in unacceptable. It forces out traditional circuits that once had good attendance in favour of government backed tracks with empty grandstands but as long as Bernie gets a higher price it's seen as a success.
Totally agree. I'd like to add that the GP itself only takes up 90 minutes of a day you've paid hundreds to attend. Whilst the F1 show needs to improve, they need to improve the day as a whole with more races, track demos etc... From what I understand, the Australian GP is packed with V8 supercars and much more. F1 at the moment isn't good value for money. Don't think it's the 'show' that's the problem. They need to go to the right locations and charge a realistic price. The current model with Bernie charging as much as he can get away with and taking no risk on ticket sales in unacceptable. It forces out traditional circuits that once had good attendance in favour of government backed tracks with empty grandstands but as long as Bernie gets a higher price it's seen as a success.
That would be a good start, Luca sadly seems to be reverting to 'Ferrari is the most important thing in F1'.... 
The 3 car team clause should only come into play if the number of cars drops below what we've had recently, but with umpteen new teams supposed to join in, that should be a long way off.....
The 3 car team clause should only come into play if the number of cars drops below what we've had recently, but with umpteen new teams supposed to join in, that should be a long way off.....
OP, spot on.
Let's follow the trail to the root cause.
Attendence is low-cause= Ticket prices too high.
Ticket Prices too high-cause= circuits overheads high.
Circuits overheads high-cause=Bernies fees are too high.
=unrealistic "upgrades" expected to keep up with the Jones'.
Bernies Fees too high-cause=Bernie is a greedy, robbing, 2 faced, self-interested little
.
Solution= start new series with Bernie having nothing to do with the promotion or organisation/ have Bernie sectioned.
Unrealistic "upgrades" expected of the circuits-cause=Bernie and Max only caring about the corporate clients and how much money they get. None of the "prettiness" of the circuit architecture helps the racing or the fans.
Solution=start new series with Bernie having nothing to do with the promotion or organisation/ have Bernie sectioned.
Let's follow the trail to the root cause.
Attendence is low-cause= Ticket prices too high.
Ticket Prices too high-cause= circuits overheads high.
Circuits overheads high-cause=Bernies fees are too high.
=unrealistic "upgrades" expected to keep up with the Jones'.
Bernies Fees too high-cause=Bernie is a greedy, robbing, 2 faced, self-interested little
. Solution= start new series with Bernie having nothing to do with the promotion or organisation/ have Bernie sectioned.
Unrealistic "upgrades" expected of the circuits-cause=Bernie and Max only caring about the corporate clients and how much money they get. None of the "prettiness" of the circuit architecture helps the racing or the fans.
Solution=start new series with Bernie having nothing to do with the promotion or organisation/ have Bernie sectioned.
I went to the Autosport 1000km at Silverstone this weekend.
Three days cost £25. I would have paid more.
There were practice, qualifying, warm up and race sessions for 4 different series starting at midday on Friday and running to 6pm on Sunday - in total, around 10 hours of actual racing. All the grandstands were open, the paddock was free and open and there was a pitlane walk and a gridwalk on raceday.
Comparing that the the VFM for the F1 visit and I struggle to see why people want to go to see live F1 (unless its on some freebie jolly in a box with unlimited Moet and vol-au-vents)
Three days cost £25. I would have paid more.
There were practice, qualifying, warm up and race sessions for 4 different series starting at midday on Friday and running to 6pm on Sunday - in total, around 10 hours of actual racing. All the grandstands were open, the paddock was free and open and there was a pitlane walk and a gridwalk on raceday.
Comparing that the the VFM for the F1 visit and I struggle to see why people want to go to see live F1 (unless its on some freebie jolly in a box with unlimited Moet and vol-au-vents)
squirrel2007 said:
I'd like to add that the GP itself only takes up 90 minutes of a day you've paid hundreds to attend. Whilst the F1 show needs to improve, they need to improve the day as a whole with more races, track demos etc... From what I understand, the Australian GP is packed with V8 supercars and much more. F1 at the moment isn't good value for money.
Huh? Did you actually go to a GP this year?I was at Silverstone over the three days and saw F1 cars for 3 hours on Friday, 2 hours on Saturday and 90 mins on Sunday. Amongst all that you had Formula BMW, Porsche Supercup, GP2 and historic practice, qualifying and races. Oh and the Red Arrows. Plenty of action I think
I do agree that prices need looking at, but book early enough and general admission was £109 for three days, but I paid £250 for my seat. If you only go on the Sunday then yes, it can be seen as poor value but many leave before the Historic race and GP Party
Just about to write exactly that. Some of those comments have clearly just watched the tv!
Im just back from monza. 3 day general admission ticket about 100 quid and I was at the track 9-5 for 3 days!! Could have also done a pit walk on thursday.
I think thats great value compared to say a premiership football match.
The good grandstand tickets are a bit steep however.
Im just back from monza. 3 day general admission ticket about 100 quid and I was at the track 9-5 for 3 days!! Could have also done a pit walk on thursday.
I think thats great value compared to say a premiership football match.
The good grandstand tickets are a bit steep however.
If you want to go to a GP go to Valencia, Spa or Monza and make a holiday of it.
It has to be much better value than sitting in traffic and sleeping in a soggy field in the UK.
I do agree a GP is more expensive than other motorsports but you are watching the best drivers in the best cars. Same reason a Rolex is more expensive than a Seiko, it's all part of the exclusive image.
This weekend I am off to Imola to watch the WTCC, no cost to get including a grandstand seat (first come first served) and £5 for a paddock pass. I guess the reason for this is I will be watching Chevy's and Lada's battle on a circuit in Italy without any Italian cars involved.
It has to be much better value than sitting in traffic and sleeping in a soggy field in the UK.
I do agree a GP is more expensive than other motorsports but you are watching the best drivers in the best cars. Same reason a Rolex is more expensive than a Seiko, it's all part of the exclusive image.
This weekend I am off to Imola to watch the WTCC, no cost to get including a grandstand seat (first come first served) and £5 for a paddock pass. I guess the reason for this is I will be watching Chevy's and Lada's battle on a circuit in Italy without any Italian cars involved.
Edited by marine boy on Wednesday 16th September 21:02
As I recently posted in another thread on GM, a fortnight before 75,000 people showed up at the Italian GP at Monza, 160,000 people drove to Bristol, Tennessee to watch the Sharpie 500 Sprint Cup race. For Sprint Cup races at Bristol, it was the 35th consecutive sellout. If you want a ticket, you have to get it in the scalpers' market, and it will cost you as much as or more than a ticket to the Italian GP.
The problems with eroding spectator interest in F1 are not down solely to global economic conditions outside of anyone's control.
The problems with eroding spectator interest in F1 are not down solely to global economic conditions outside of anyone's control.
I think the Monza crowd was purely a result of Ferrari's performance. It's always been a very partisan crowd.
Silverstone had the biggest crowd for years this year, so ticket prices are not an issue on overall attendance (they are a factor on an individuals ability to attend, but if Silverstone ticket prices were reduced, we would end up with a lottery situation to get tickets like Japan in the late 80's / early 90's). Silverstone was sold out, so it's not just a case of dropping prices and getting even more in, it physically can't cope with more. It's not an all seater bowl like a Nascar track.
Belgium two weeks ago looked rammed as well.
Pricing is an issue at other venues though. I paid around £230 for a three day pass at Silverstone and the stand was full, whereas my seat in Monaco was EUR450 (£420 roughly at the time) for just the Sunday. I bought my ticket at Monaco on the Saturday of the race and had my choice of stands and there were plenty of seats left empty come race time. Singapore is about £500 for three days, so it will be interesting to see what that's like for empty spaces.
You get the impression though that some venues, Turkey for instance, couldn't sell out if they gave the tickets away, and it seemed to me that Valencia has avoided the problem of empty stands on TV by not building any stands.
The sport needs to be brought back to where the fans are (Europe mainly, but Canada etc., too) at the right prices. In some cases, that may even mean putting prices up. If I was the Commercial Director of Silverstone, I would be happy when I've set the prices at the level where there was one seat left unsold on race day.
(Also, in terms of value for money, 90 minutes football at Stamford Bridge costs about £50. That's for something that happens maybe 30 times a year, assuming a cup run, and doesn't include a weekend away/support events, etc., And you have to watch Chelsea. Comparing to other motorsport doesn't really work, you need to compare to the pinnacle of other sports for a true comparison)
Silverstone had the biggest crowd for years this year, so ticket prices are not an issue on overall attendance (they are a factor on an individuals ability to attend, but if Silverstone ticket prices were reduced, we would end up with a lottery situation to get tickets like Japan in the late 80's / early 90's). Silverstone was sold out, so it's not just a case of dropping prices and getting even more in, it physically can't cope with more. It's not an all seater bowl like a Nascar track.
Belgium two weeks ago looked rammed as well.
Pricing is an issue at other venues though. I paid around £230 for a three day pass at Silverstone and the stand was full, whereas my seat in Monaco was EUR450 (£420 roughly at the time) for just the Sunday. I bought my ticket at Monaco on the Saturday of the race and had my choice of stands and there were plenty of seats left empty come race time. Singapore is about £500 for three days, so it will be interesting to see what that's like for empty spaces.
You get the impression though that some venues, Turkey for instance, couldn't sell out if they gave the tickets away, and it seemed to me that Valencia has avoided the problem of empty stands on TV by not building any stands.
The sport needs to be brought back to where the fans are (Europe mainly, but Canada etc., too) at the right prices. In some cases, that may even mean putting prices up. If I was the Commercial Director of Silverstone, I would be happy when I've set the prices at the level where there was one seat left unsold on race day.
(Also, in terms of value for money, 90 minutes football at Stamford Bridge costs about £50. That's for something that happens maybe 30 times a year, assuming a cup run, and doesn't include a weekend away/support events, etc., And you have to watch Chelsea. Comparing to other motorsport doesn't really work, you need to compare to the pinnacle of other sports for a true comparison)
I've been thinking why it is I, personally, haven't bothered going to a GP for some 20 years.
Partly it's down to the increasing prices - previously it was a reasonable cost to go and watch practice and qualifying on the Saturday of the GP weekend, but now I baulk at the cost. Ditto the cost of the race day.
But the reality is that I find F1 cars, live, to be not very interesting. They're fast yes, and make lots of noise, but they don't really *race* each other very often so if you're in the wrong place all you'll see is a stream of cars going past.
Compare that to the GTs and prototypes I was watching at the weekend, or to touring cars, or even F3, and there's just not as much action on the track. And having seen NASCAR and IRL races live, the comments above about the context in which you see the racing is very true - NASCAR may be red-neck central, but you can follow the race easily and experience the whole race going on in front of you.
So, I'd rather watch a GP on TV to make sure I didn't miss anything, but enjoy watching other types of cars and *racing* live.
Monza again for me last weekend, as people have said, make a holiday of it. Three days at the Grand Prix, one at Como and one in Monza make for a good trip away.
The issue with Monza is two fold this year. Firstly, there were fewersmall stands, meaning it was still a pain to get anywhere decent.
Secondly the covered grand stand in the middle of Ascari was taken up by the Paddock Club for the whole three days. There were about 10 people in it (capacity must be 150) on Sunday, the rest of the time it was empty and guarded by security.
I think a lot of people don't go because you're treated like crap in the main. Compared to Le Mans, where you feel part of the event, F1 makes you feel totally unwelcome.
As a side note, the 16% drop this year at Monza could be down to the fact that a whole load of people camped in the park from Thursday, securing the best spots and avoiding having to buy a ticket!
The issue with Monza is two fold this year. Firstly, there were fewersmall stands, meaning it was still a pain to get anywhere decent.
Secondly the covered grand stand in the middle of Ascari was taken up by the Paddock Club for the whole three days. There were about 10 people in it (capacity must be 150) on Sunday, the rest of the time it was empty and guarded by security.
I think a lot of people don't go because you're treated like crap in the main. Compared to Le Mans, where you feel part of the event, F1 makes you feel totally unwelcome.
As a side note, the 16% drop this year at Monza could be down to the fact that a whole load of people camped in the park from Thursday, securing the best spots and avoiding having to buy a ticket!
flemke said:
As I recently posted in another thread on GM, a fortnight before 75,000 people showed up at the Italian GP at Monza, 160,000 people drove to Bristol, Tennessee to watch the Sharpie 500 Sprint Cup race. For Sprint Cup races at Bristol, it was the 35th consecutive sellout. If you want a ticket, you have to get it in the scalpers' market, and it will cost you as much as or more than a ticket to the Italian GP.
The problems with eroding spectator interest in F1 are not down solely to global economic conditions outside of anyone's control.
Although it should be noted that at the depths of the credit crunch the Daytona 500 (250k?) only sold out in the final week. However...The problems with eroding spectator interest in F1 are not down solely to global economic conditions outside of anyone's control.
BalhamLotus said:
Silverstone had the biggest crowd for years this year, so ticket prices are not an issue on overall attendance (they are a factor on an individuals ability to attend, but if Silverstone ticket prices were reduced, we would end up with a lottery situation to get tickets like Japan in the late 80's / early 90's). Silverstone was sold out, so it's not just a case of dropping prices and getting even more in, it physically can't cope with more. It's not an all seater bowl like a Nascar track.
Here's another element. Silverstone, restricted to what 90,000 spectators, only 40,000 in scaffolding grandstands (at considerably more cost)? Bristol offers permanent grandstand seats for 160,000.Silverstone has been hosting the Grand Prix for 60 years, and still does not have a single permanent, concrete grandstand. Rockingham (UK) has such a unit on the main straight, and mighty impressive it is. The Silverstone site should have a capacity of at least 250,000, seated, covered, with a good selection of corporate boxes. You could halve the prices (to the Bristol prices flemke has mentioned) and still increase revenue 50% - they might even make a profit on that. At £75 entry (with guaranteed seat), the GP would represent seriously good value even in cash-restricted times, and demand would soar.
In the UK there is the demand, and several other traditional venues in Europe. But there has been a lack of vision and investment. At £100, or £400 for the family for a day, a tartan rug on wet grass no longer cuts it, especially when times are tough - especially when that £400 would get the family one week in Magaluf.
The NASCAR system is geared to providing as many spectators as possible a must-see event. They have focussed on every aspect of the customer experience (access, parking, atmosphere, racing, show), and done it for decades. They are miles ahead of the F1 world, and have built deep loyalty. When times got tough, the spectators still came.
HiRich said:
Here's another element. Silverstone, restricted to what 90,000 spectators, only 40,000 in scaffolding grandstands (at considerably more cost)? Bristol offers permanent grandstand seats for 160,000.
Silverstone has been hosting the Grand Prix for 60 years, and still does not have a single permanent, concrete grandstand. Rockingham (UK) has such a unit on the main straight, and mighty impressive it is. The Silverstone site should have a capacity of at least 250,000, seated, covered, with a good selection of corporate boxes. You could halve the prices (to the Bristol prices flemke has mentioned) and still increase revenue 50% - they might even make a profit on that. At £75 entry (with guaranteed seat), the GP would represent seriously good value even in cash-restricted times, and demand would soar.
In the UK there is the demand, and several other traditional venues in Europe. But there has been a lack of vision and investment. At £100, or £400 for the family for a day, a tartan rug on wet grass no longer cuts it, especially when times are tough - especially when that £400 would get the family one week in Magaluf.
The NASCAR system is geared to providing as many spectators as possible a must-see event. They have focussed on every aspect of the customer experience (access, parking, atmosphere, racing, show), and done it for decades. They are miles ahead of the F1 world, and have built deep loyalty. When times got tough, the spectators still came.
And it's not just NASCAR - pretty much any sporting event in the US is geared towards a "total entertainment" experience, be it basket ball, ice hockey, etc.Silverstone has been hosting the Grand Prix for 60 years, and still does not have a single permanent, concrete grandstand. Rockingham (UK) has such a unit on the main straight, and mighty impressive it is. The Silverstone site should have a capacity of at least 250,000, seated, covered, with a good selection of corporate boxes. You could halve the prices (to the Bristol prices flemke has mentioned) and still increase revenue 50% - they might even make a profit on that. At £75 entry (with guaranteed seat), the GP would represent seriously good value even in cash-restricted times, and demand would soar.
In the UK there is the demand, and several other traditional venues in Europe. But there has been a lack of vision and investment. At £100, or £400 for the family for a day, a tartan rug on wet grass no longer cuts it, especially when times are tough - especially when that £400 would get the family one week in Magaluf.
The NASCAR system is geared to providing as many spectators as possible a must-see event. They have focussed on every aspect of the customer experience (access, parking, atmosphere, racing, show), and done it for decades. They are miles ahead of the F1 world, and have built deep loyalty. When times got tough, the spectators still came.
In motorsport terms, the NHRA also do a bloody good job of putting on a great show for the spectators, not just on the track but with the paddock access, the drivers all being available to sign autographs (and do it willingly), merchandising, etc., etc. And again, fans come (and come back) in their droves.
Motorsport in the UK, and in Europe for that matter, has never really been seen as entertainment by the participants and the organisers - spectators are just given the bare minimum to keep them happy on the most part. Some series, such as the BTCC, have tried, but it's hard to maintain year on year.
But F1 has no excuses - as you say, it's got the demand, but that demand needs to be treated with a little more respect.
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