single turbo noble
Discussion
I could well be wrong but i thought the idea about having two smaller turbos is to reduce the turbo lag which you would typically get with a single larger turbo. Whats the main benefit of fitting a single turbo to the car?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxEF7BMcmg&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxEF7BMcmg&fea...
Another key factor is vastly improved heat management (including a much cooler cabin).
You can get some insight regarding the innate advantages from a driver's standpoint in post #15 of this thread
http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=51388#...
Indeed, IMO, the question should be "do twin turbos offer any advantage at all?"
You can get some insight regarding the innate advantages from a driver's standpoint in post #15 of this thread
http://www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=51388#...
Indeed, IMO, the question should be "do twin turbos offer any advantage at all?"
Edited by JLSELAN on Sunday 20th September 02:46
In all fairness, post 15 adds zero to the twin/single issue? all it says of any relevance is that its good if kept over 3500rpm?
It's partially a plumbing and control issue really, particularly (for us) with a "vee" engines, which lend themselves towards twin turbo applications. So a key factor is practicality and the actual installation issues.
Mike.
It's partially a plumbing and control issue really, particularly (for us) with a "vee" engines, which lend themselves towards twin turbo applications. So a key factor is practicality and the actual installation issues.
Mike.
You seem to be seeing only what you want to see in that first paragraph.
A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~110 second lap)).
A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~110 second lap)).
Edited by JLSELAN on Monday 21st September 03:57
JLSELAN said:
You seem to be seeing only what you want to see in that first paragraph.
A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~80 second lap)).
woah there Horsey. A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~80 second lap)).
Joel, I understand implicitly the pro's and con's of one over the other, but lets not overdo things eh.
I am in no way anti single Turbo, far from it in fact!
I have no doubt that the car in question does all of the things mentioned but some of those claimed advantages don't make sense?
<devils advocate> Explain to me how a single turbo fitment allows fewer gear shifts over a twin turbo fitment?
Not looking for a fight over this in any way, but the attributes being apportioned to the quantity of turbo's used are nonsensical.
The differences between a single over twin are not enormous if both set-ups have correctly specced Turbos?
Mike.
???
the twin turbo debate is usually one of lag
two smaller turbo's usually have less inertia than a single turbo so will spool up quicker
however the Noble has 3.0 litres and can easily spin a larger single turbo
or you can think of it as two 1.5 engines for a twin turbo set up
the issue here is how much power do you want and is there an off the shelf turbo to give you the power that you want without too much lag
if its a road car lag is not fun - if its a race/track car then you only get lag once as you pull away from there onwards the car is in the powerband
using turbo's that are a little small and pushing them hard means you are pushing the compressor map to the edge of its efficency and as a result the temperature of the air going into the intercooler gets very hot. This means the intercooler will not remove enough heat and the car will pull back the timing to save the engine, not allowing you to make peak power
two smaller turbo's usually have less inertia than a single turbo so will spool up quicker
however the Noble has 3.0 litres and can easily spin a larger single turbo
or you can think of it as two 1.5 engines for a twin turbo set up
the issue here is how much power do you want and is there an off the shelf turbo to give you the power that you want without too much lag
if its a road car lag is not fun - if its a race/track car then you only get lag once as you pull away from there onwards the car is in the powerband
using turbo's that are a little small and pushing them hard means you are pushing the compressor map to the edge of its efficency and as a result the temperature of the air going into the intercooler gets very hot. This means the intercooler will not remove enough heat and the car will pull back the timing to save the engine, not allowing you to make peak power
Edited by Gadgeroonie on Sunday 20th September 21:56
Mike Tuckwood said:
JLSELAN said:
You seem to be seeing only what you want to see in that first paragraph.
A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~80 second lap)).
woah there Horsey. A driver with substantial Noble twin turbo experience says there is no comparison -- the single turbo delivers: more linear power, more power/torque overall and is effortlessly faster with fewer shifts (to the tune of 9 seconds a lap (on an ~80 second lap)).
Joel, I understand implicitly the pro's and con's of one over the other, but lets not overdo things eh.
I am in no way anti single Turbo, far from it in fact!
I have no doubt that the car in question does all of the things mentioned but some of those claimed advantages don't make sense?
<devils advocate> Explain to me how a single turbo fitment allows fewer gear shifts over a twin turbo fitment?
Not looking for a fight over this in any way, but the attributes being apportioned to the quantity of turbo's used are nonsensical.
The differences between a single over twin are not enormous if both set-ups have correctly specced Turbos?
Mike.
JLSELAN said:
Nevertheless, some really outrageous comments there when you say an experienced driver with multiple years experience on his home track is making "nonsensical claims" when comparing his own car's performance with twin- and single-turbo set ups. It should be obvious to anyone who actually drives that having a motor with a broad and linear power/torque band means you spend less time shifting gears.
That can be done with twin Turbo set-up as well though Joel, arguably, twins will as Mike rightly says for faster spool up, particularly as HP rises, and if specced correctly could even possibly make for a wider torque area due to being on song earlier.I very much doubt that the single Turbo set-up as a swap out for similarly rated pair of Turbo's so I assume the lap timereduction came from the hike in power?
Mike.
JLSELAN said:
Nevertheless, some really outrageous comments there when you say an experienced driver with multiple years experience on his home track is making "nonsensical claims" when comparing his own car's performance with twin- and single-turbo set ups. It should be obvious to anyone who actually drives that having a motor with a broad and linear power/torque band means you spend less time shifting gears.
read this thread and your replies quite clearly imply the reduced lap times are all down to the single turbo... However what he actually said was.:-
"As long as I stayed above 3500 rpms (easy on the track), there was absolutely no perceptible lag. The car was an absolute rocket. Coupled with some significant suspension, alignment and camber adjustments made by Rob and Jim at Turbohoses and Hoover's fabrication of a functioning splitter, diffuser, and wing, I honestly felt what it's like to drive a "real" racecar.
And the proof was in the pudding/timing. On a relatively warm track session (about 85 degrees), I cut almost 9 seconds off my previous fastest time on that track. Obviously that is light years (one could easily say I must have been horribly slow before to take that much time off, and you may very well be right...I'm still learning to drive fast), but it was effortless."
So reading your comments alone Mikes ones are fair... the guy had modded the car and significantly improved it in all areas, he's also quite clearly NOT claiming it was all down to the single turbo setup!
Also the point Mike is making that you have ignoired is that if you spec the turbos carefully on a twin turbo settup you can get them to spool up as quickly as std and keep them going for longer thus getting a broader spread of power... often what happens is that simply a bigger pair of turbos is bolted on to allow higher boost, which is ok but not optimum.
As a road car putting a single turbo on would ruin my car, but then Im not looking for more power and mine doesnt go on track so I dont have heat issues...
No argument that proper turbo(s) specs are critically important, but so is tuning and ECU mapping to take best advantage of the boost characteristics.
And speaking of boost, that is another advantage of the single turbo since it achieves significant improvements in power/torque compared to a twin set up while using low to moderate boost (0.8-1.2 bar). I doubt if you could begin to get comparable performance from a twin set up without pushing the boost to potentially unsafe levels.
As for "ruining your street car"--it is incredible that you can make such a statement in the complete absence of facts or experience. I have driven several street tuned single-turbo Nobles, and I would choose that set up without question over my current M12 because their linear power delivery and overall performance is substantially better--without any detectable increase in lag. I'm just waiting for my current turbos to fail before making the change.
And speaking of boost, that is another advantage of the single turbo since it achieves significant improvements in power/torque compared to a twin set up while using low to moderate boost (0.8-1.2 bar). I doubt if you could begin to get comparable performance from a twin set up without pushing the boost to potentially unsafe levels.
As for "ruining your street car"--it is incredible that you can make such a statement in the complete absence of facts or experience. I have driven several street tuned single-turbo Nobles, and I would choose that set up without question over my current M12 because their linear power delivery and overall performance is substantially better--without any detectable increase in lag. I'm just waiting for my current turbos to fail before making the change.
Edited by JLSELAN on Monday 21st September 21:24
JLSELAN said:
No argument that proper turbo(s) specs are critically important, but so is tuning and ECU mapping to take best advantage of the boost characteristics.
Absolutely agree there.JLSELAN said:
And speaking of boost, that is another advantage of the single turbo since it achieves significant improvements in power/torque compared to a twin set up while using low to moderate boost (0.8-1.2 bar). I doubt if you could begin to get comparable performance from a twin set up without pushing the boost to potentially unsafe levels.
Then my fellow Nobility chum you are wrong. You're SERIOUSLY barking up the wrong tree Joel if you think these things come about due to the quantity of Turbo's. The overall VE of the engine is the critical factor, header length is also a big aid to spool and Single turbo is a big disadvantage in this area. JLSELAN said:
As for "ruining your street car"--it is incredible that you can make such a statement in the complete absence of facts or experience.
Now you're kidding surely. You don't have a clue as to my or particularly Andygtt's level of experience actually is, so how can you comment on it one way or the other?JLSELAN said:
I have driven several street tuned single-turbo Nobles, and I would choose that set up without question over my current M12 because their linear power delivery and overall performance is substantially better--without any detectable increase in lag. I'm just waiting for my current turbos to fail before making the change.
Why wait, I'm tuning my Noble without anything having broken to prompt me. Why would your Turbo's fail? 
Mike.
Well, perhaps I was being too subtle.
If you will tell everyone exactly how many hours you have logged behind the wheel of a single-turbo Noble road car fabricated by Hoover/Chris and mapped by Ricky then maybe we can judge your experience and the available factual information you have to comment on these installations and how having one would ruin your road car. I claim that without such experience you can say nothing of value relative to that installation.
As for the heat management issue. Just try driving a standard Noble for an hour or two on a day when the ambient temp is 35 degrees C (we have lots of those days here all spring, summer and fall) and tell me how comfortable you are. And, to my knowledge, a single-turbo Noble has never suffered from heat soaking and power reduction on the track, even at ambient temps up to 40 degrees C (which is also not that uncommon in this part of the U.S.). Meanwhile, I have personally seen the motors of at least a dozen twin-turbo Nobles (including my own) go into "heat stroke mode" while under the same high load/high temp conditions.
As for failing turbos, they are not known to be hi-life items, in general; and it does not help that water cooling is not included on the turbos fitted to U.S. M12s.
If you will tell everyone exactly how many hours you have logged behind the wheel of a single-turbo Noble road car fabricated by Hoover/Chris and mapped by Ricky then maybe we can judge your experience and the available factual information you have to comment on these installations and how having one would ruin your road car. I claim that without such experience you can say nothing of value relative to that installation.
As for the heat management issue. Just try driving a standard Noble for an hour or two on a day when the ambient temp is 35 degrees C (we have lots of those days here all spring, summer and fall) and tell me how comfortable you are. And, to my knowledge, a single-turbo Noble has never suffered from heat soaking and power reduction on the track, even at ambient temps up to 40 degrees C (which is also not that uncommon in this part of the U.S.). Meanwhile, I have personally seen the motors of at least a dozen twin-turbo Nobles (including my own) go into "heat stroke mode" while under the same high load/high temp conditions.
As for failing turbos, they are not known to be hi-life items, in general; and it does not help that water cooling is not included on the turbos fitted to U.S. M12s.
Edited by JLSELAN on Tuesday 22 September 03:51
Your comparison of single turbo to twin turbo Noble, was it done in the states? and correct me if im wrong but do the standard Nobles over there use bigger turbos and thus have more lag than my UK car does? (I run a GT03 not M400).
Were the cars you tested completely standard, no mapping or extra boost etc? Did you also compare with a well sorted proven high powered car done by Yellowshed? (adrians car for example)
Point Im making is that the comparisons are a) only your perspective and B) too specific for you to make sweeping statements about all Nobles regardless of spec.
These guys have clearly produced a very good package that works very well, but its a modification that adds more power and will rev longer etc...
Regarding my statement about it ruining my car, let me explain.... My Noble is my everyday car and I do over 20k miles a year in mine, I have another car which is my track day toy so the Noble never goes near the track and Im building a very special car similar to a Noble were Im turbocharging a BMW V12... All this means that I dont want or need to increase the power of my noble (box would break if I added any power at all).
Im interested in it being reliable & cost effective to run as well as performing well on the road, currently it is all of these things in all weather conditions (Ive driven it all round europe in 35c weather conditions with no issues at all and the air con has always more than coped).
So a single turbo wont add anything to my car at all only increase lag.
I suspect that if you asked them if its worth going to single turbo on a std UK car sticking to std power & torque (350bhp) they would agree it wasnt.
Im certainly not flaming single turbos, far from it I can definatelly see some advantages especially in the Noble were packaging is one of the issues... just trying to argue that any twin turbo setup is inferior is miss informed.
Were the cars you tested completely standard, no mapping or extra boost etc? Did you also compare with a well sorted proven high powered car done by Yellowshed? (adrians car for example)
Point Im making is that the comparisons are a) only your perspective and B) too specific for you to make sweeping statements about all Nobles regardless of spec.
These guys have clearly produced a very good package that works very well, but its a modification that adds more power and will rev longer etc...
Regarding my statement about it ruining my car, let me explain.... My Noble is my everyday car and I do over 20k miles a year in mine, I have another car which is my track day toy so the Noble never goes near the track and Im building a very special car similar to a Noble were Im turbocharging a BMW V12... All this means that I dont want or need to increase the power of my noble (box would break if I added any power at all).
Im interested in it being reliable & cost effective to run as well as performing well on the road, currently it is all of these things in all weather conditions (Ive driven it all round europe in 35c weather conditions with no issues at all and the air con has always more than coped).
So a single turbo wont add anything to my car at all only increase lag.
I suspect that if you asked them if its worth going to single turbo on a std UK car sticking to std power & torque (350bhp) they would agree it wasnt.
Im certainly not flaming single turbos, far from it I can definatelly see some advantages especially in the Noble were packaging is one of the issues... just trying to argue that any twin turbo setup is inferior is miss informed.
Edited by andygtt on Tuesday 22 September 10:01
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"just trying to argue that any twin turbo setup is inferior is miss informed"
twin turbo's require more effort in most applications, you don't fit two turbo's when one will do
consider this
option one - target 350 hp twin turbo's well matched to engine
option two - target 350 hp single turbo well matched to engine
the twin turbo set up should spool up quicker and be less stressed than a single
its horses for courses really
twin turbo's require more effort in most applications, you don't fit two turbo's when one will do
consider this
option one - target 350 hp twin turbo's well matched to engine
option two - target 350 hp single turbo well matched to engine
the twin turbo set up should spool up quicker and be less stressed than a single
its horses for courses really
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