Tourbillon / Skeleton recommendations?

[Stig]

Chaps,

I have a err... 'milestone' birthday coming up and needless to say, the family are asking what I would like.

Now, I have a fair collection of watches, but I don't generally spend much on them.

I've always hankered after a nice skeleton tourbillon, or even just a nice skeleton, so recommendations welcome!

Price range ermmm... no idea really - from £250 to £2500 gives a fair spread I imagine.

Ta

[Chairman LMAO]

[Mr Noble]

Tourbillons tend to start at about £10-15,000 Sir, and go up to over £200,000. The skeleton ones you may have seen on t'interweb are cheap Chinese copies and should be avoided like the plague!

What does your collection consist of? Maybe there will be a gaping gap in it somewhere! I assume you have the standard issue Rolex sports and Omega speedmasters etc etc, any Panerai or JLC yet?

[Stig]

Mr Noble said:

Tourbillons tend to start at about £10-15,000 Sir, and go up to over £200,000. The skeleton ones you may have seen on t'interweb are cheap Chinese copies and should be avoided like the plague!

What does your collection consist of? Maybe there will be a gaping gap in it somewhere! I assume you have the standard issue Rolex sports and Omega speedmasters etc etc, any Panerai or JLC yet?

lol! No - my collection consists of cheapo quartz jobbies that I take a shine to in a Jackdaw stylee

Sounds like a decent Tourbillon/Skeleton will be well out of budget.

Shame - I don't have a problem wearing something made in China providing, of course, that it lasts for more that 5mins.

Excuse my ignorance - I'll get back to the Argos catalogue

[Debaser]

Orient do some skeleton type watches that don't cost a fortune.



or



Have a look here or here

[Stig]

Thanks Debaser - not bad, but being called 'Orient' is a bit offputting

[Debaser]

Don't let the name put you off. They are Japanese and a subsidiary of Seiko.

Take from Wiki - 'Through its sixty-year history, the company has contributed several technological advances in watchmaking efficiency such as the development of power-reserve indicators and use of in-house movement production of watches in the hundred-dollar price range.'

I don't know too much about them but from what I've read they seem to be a well respected watchmaker.

[Rob_R]

The are lots of watch companies that do attractive skeletonised movements sans tourbillon which would be well within your price range.

But, as the others have said, if it's a tourbillon you want it's going to be £10k minimum.

[andy_s]

Tourbillons may be out of reach but a skeleton shouldn't be, how about a Debaufre Esquilito Art Deco Limited Edition? (Forget that one - out of stock!)

Corum Golden Bridge (Ha - if only!), Bulova Accutron Spaceview (I'm hunting/joking!) and Oris may be worth a look with Oris/Orient top of the pile I think.

[sneijder]

You sound like a Swiss snob , but if you're prepared to go Chinese you can afford it :

Perpetual out of HK get rave reviews on the budget forums :

http://www.perpetual-watch.com/tourbillon.html

It's a small set up, this is his Youtube channel :

http://www.youtube.com/user/perpetual07

Or, if you are prepared to go really Chinese then head towards Seagull :

http://www.usseagull.com/tourbillon.htm

They do Tourbillion and Skeleton too. The US site is a lot more inexpensive than the EU site, and they have no qualms about shipping to Europe.

Have a plough through here for reviews and better pictures than the manufacturers admittedly shoddy websites : http://forums.watchuseek.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

[PaulHogan]

Russian tourbillion £69

http://www.russia4u.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=455N...


ditto skeleton £75

http://www.russia4u.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=558

[sneijder]

The Russian effort is just an automatic, Tourbillions are built to be precise and 'Guaranteed accuracy -20 to +60 secs per day' isn't all that.

[PaulHogan]

sneijder said:

The Russian effort is just an automatic, Tourbillions are built to be precise and 'Guaranteed accuracy -20 to +60 secs per day' isn't all that.

Don't be such a pretentious snob. A tourbillion is simply an addition to the type of escapement. Accuracy is in no way part of it (though I wouldn't argue against that it ought to be). See wiki for a little enlightenment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourbillon

[sneijder]

I read that Wiki article only a couple of weeks ago.

All I was saying is that this movement:



Doesn't look too much like a Tourbillion, it looks more like this :



A watch purchased by this very pretentious snob for a tenner.

I can assure you, mine is not a Tourbillion. In fact it's so shoddy calling it a watch is sailing close to the wind.

[cyberface]

sneijder said:

You sound like a Swiss snob , but if you're prepared to go Chinese you can afford it :

Perpetual out of HK get rave reviews on the budget forums :

http://www.perpetual-watch.com/tourbillon.html

It's a small set up, this is his Youtube channel :

http://www.youtube.com/user/perpetual07

Or, if you are prepared to go really Chinese then head towards Seagull :

http://www.usseagull.com/tourbillon.htm

They do Tourbillion and Skeleton too. The US site is a lot more inexpensive than the EU site, and they have no qualms about shipping to Europe.

Have a plough through here for reviews and better pictures than the manufacturers admittedly shoddy websites : http://forums.watchuseek.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

IIRC there are 4 Chinese watchmakers who build tourbillons, in wildly varying qualities.

A good start for less than £400 would be the British Horological Institute's Anniversary watch, which I'm assuming (given it's sold by the BHI) has some QC and regulation of the movement done before being shipped to you. It uses the cheapest (and least desirable IMO, it's a chunky tourbillon cage and nowhere *near* as elegant looking as Sea-Gull's) tourbillon movement which is normally seen in top-end replicas / fakes as well as loads of small one-off jobs. I desperately want a tourbillon and know that I'm going to have to settle for Chinese made (Swiss is, as pointed out above, £10k+) but I've been avoiding the BHI watch because I didn't like the large crest on the dial. But they make another variant, with a much smaller logo and a power reserve (useful in a hand-wound)... which *is* tempting.

But I'm really holding out to get a Sea-Gull. I know that Sea-Gull owe a lot of their watchmaking heritage to bought and copied designs (they bought the Venus 75 production tools, and now make that lovely column-wheel chronograph in a number of styles, but they also copied the ETA 2824 and 2836 movements and make very accurate replicas - perhaps these should be termed 'versions' since ETA also make these movements in China...) but the tourbillon design is their own, and caused a fuss in Switzerland when it was launched. It is also, to my eyes, rather elegant, with the top tourbillon cage shaped like a bird (not a lot like a seagull, but still, it's nice).

Some Sea-Gull movements get into replica / fakes, but Sea-Gull aren't cheap (by Chinese standards) so in general it'll be the movement in the BHI watch you'll see in fake tourbillons (Breguets, for example).

Sea-Gull have a European website and distributor but they appear to think they can sell the watches for 4-5 times more than the USA site is... not sure what business model is going on there, but the best approach is to buy one from the US website sneijder posted above - they are happy to ship to the UK.

Out of all the Chinese watchmakers, Sea-Gull are the only one I'd consider a manufacture - and I'm very generous to them compared to a LOT of watch snobs out there. They'll never have the history or tradition - Breguet beat them to it but now there's an international market for their own brand (rather than just selling ébauches and being most commonly seen in counterfeits) and they've got a price point that is well below the Swiss but still substantial enough to convince some customers that they're not buying utter junk made from recycled tin cans, they're really having a go at making appealing, attractive complicated watches.

They've made a double tourbillon and a few other exotics, but the basic models on the US Sea-Gull site (for me, the round chronographs, and a couple of the tourbillons) are nicely designed IMO. Not too gaudy and blingy, as perhaps you'd expect a Chinese luxury brand to be - they've taken some pretty heavy influence from Breguet but hell, he invented the damn thing and the classic style just looks *good*.

More importantly, they wear the brand 'Sea-Gull' proudly on the dial, and 'China Made' at the bottom. Along with the general rise of China geopolitically, I get the impression that the factory is proud of its watches and QC is a hell of a lot better than with the other stuff. Even though China is synonymous with fakes in the watch world, the Sea-Gull branded watches are pretty much the opposite of fake - proudly declaring their own brand. I rather like Sea-Gull, I like the aesthetics (most probably because I love Breguet!) and they make loads of complications based off that ST-19 movement, and their own tourbillon.

For less than £500 the BHI watch is worth getting just to see the movement and play with it... hopefully BHI watchmakers will inspect each watch before shipping, but they wouldn't have expanded into a new range (last year there was only one BHI tourbillon watch) if the watches were of so poor quality that word got around. After all, the only people finding the BHI website are likely to be watch geeks and they'll tell of their experience with the watch on watch geek forums (note, I haven't tried searching for feedback on the BHI watch - it may be appalling )

However there's something about Sea-Gull that sets it apart from the generic Chinese copy artists - it seems to have a brand identity of its own, and having seen a full part-by-part breakdown comparison between Sea-Gull's 2824 clone and a genuine Swiss ETA 2824, Sea-Gull's work is pretty good given the price limits they have to set.

Personally, I'd love a Sea-Gull tourbillon. I'm probably going to get one of their chronograph complications, since I love that Venus 75 movement (ST-19) and Sea-Gull decorate it nicely, and they are inexpensive. I'm still keeping an eye out for the original or reissue Chinese Air Force watch - this was made by Sea-Gull and has a bit of history to it, along with the lovely column wheel chronograph movement. I'll have to wait for the tourbillon, as they are more serious money.

[sneijder]

Great post, Seagull have just completed an automatic Chrono. I'll try to dig up some pics tonight.

[Stig]

Thanks for some great advice chaps. On balance, as this will be a dress watch and the aesthetics are the most important thing (accuracy not important as use will be infrequent and I have 3 waveceptors if I need accurate time!)

Will check some of the suggestions above, but broadening (perhaps) the search to skeletons in general - rather than tourbillon or tourbillon-esque movements - any other suggestions?

[cyberface]

Stig said:

Thanks for some great advice chaps. On balance, as this will be a dress watch and the aesthetics are the most important thing (accuracy not important as use will be infrequent and I have 3 waveceptors if I need accurate time!)

Will check some of the suggestions above, but broadening (perhaps) the search to skeletons in general - rather than tourbillon or tourbillon-esque movements - any other suggestions?

Yup - Swatch's skeleton automatic mechanical. I know, those words don't tend to normally be associated with 'Swatch' - especially when it's the Swatch brand, and not one that Hayek bought as part of the empire (like, say, Breguet). It's £95 and the movement is a modified, slightly stripped down ETA 2824-2.



If the bracelet is too 'bling' for you, then you have an almost infinite selection of straps or bracelets, since it's a Swatch and they're interchangeable...

[glazbagun]

cyberface said:

(perhaps these should be termed 'versions' since ETA also make these movements in China...)

Sorry for a slight thread hijack, but I'd heard this mentioned a lot when I frequented TZ-UK, but have yet to see any evidence online. Do you have any sources which suggest that ETA produce 2824's in China? IE: machine/finish them there, as opposed to perhaps buying pressed blanks? All I've ever managed to find via google was a bunch of knock-off sites touching their nose in a "see- they *tell* you that they're Swiss". Distinction between Swiss and Swiss Made or no, I'm not going to take it as gospel.

Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 15th October 03:25

[glazbagun]

On topic I've always liked the Oris Artelier, and they do a Skeletonised version (I'm not massive on skeletonized movements generally) which, without googling, I'm sure could be had for under £1200.

http://www.oris.ch/collections/collections_detail....