Brunstrom Again .....
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3381739.stm
Drivers who are caught speeding in the North Wales Police force area, but who were not going fast enough to be fined, can expect letter telling them they have broken the law. The Welsh force - which has come under considerable criticism for its hard-line stance against speeding drivers - is the first in the UK to take the step.
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
Now, however, drivers who are caught doing 37mph are being sent stern letters warning them that they, too, are breaking the law.
Last month alone, as many as 500 warning letters were sent out.
The organisation which operates the cameras - Arrive Alive - has explained that the letters are aimed at getting people to slow down, and teaching road-users the dangers of speeding.
But the Chief Constable of North Wales, Richard Brunstrom, has already admitted that the thresholds at which drivers get fined are under review and he would like to see them reduced.
Mr Brunstrom's tough line on law-breaking motorists has put his force under the spotlight several times in recent months.
In December a retired bank manager who became embroiled in a speeding row with him called for his resignation.
William Shaw, 71, was angered when chief constable Richard Brunstrom called a news conference to attack him after he complained about a speeding conviction in July.
The pensioner has written a detailed complaint against Mr Brunstrom to the North Wales Police Authority's professional standards committee which will consider the matter next month.
Mr Shaw lost a 50-year clean driving record when a speed camera in Flintshire caught driving at 39mph in a 30mph zone earlier this year.
He claimed in court his prosecution was unfair and said North Wales Police had misused their power.
Mr Shaw, from Llangollen, said he was pleading guilty in the hope magistrates would reject the case.
He is now calling for a public apology from the chief constable and his resignation.
In court he claimed he had completed a safe driving manoeuvre and police were hitting "soft targets" like him.
Magistrates fined Mr Shaw £60, with £30 costs and three penalty points, and said they had "every sympathy" with him.
Speaking at the time Mr Brunstrom said the pensioner had been "irresponsible" and was "misleading the public."
Mr Shaw's complaint against Mr Brunstrom will be discussed when the committee meet in January.
Members will meet in private with neither the chief constable nor Mr Shaw present.
A spokesman for the police authority said members will decide "if the complaint can be dealt with or if it has to be dealt with by an outside investigator."
Mr Brunstrom has been heavily criticised for his zero-tolerance policy against speeding motorists who he has described as "anti-social" and "criminals".
Drivers who are caught speeding in the North Wales Police force area, but who were not going fast enough to be fined, can expect letter telling them they have broken the law. The Welsh force - which has come under considerable criticism for its hard-line stance against speeding drivers - is the first in the UK to take the step.
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
Now, however, drivers who are caught doing 37mph are being sent stern letters warning them that they, too, are breaking the law.
Last month alone, as many as 500 warning letters were sent out.
The organisation which operates the cameras - Arrive Alive - has explained that the letters are aimed at getting people to slow down, and teaching road-users the dangers of speeding.
But the Chief Constable of North Wales, Richard Brunstrom, has already admitted that the thresholds at which drivers get fined are under review and he would like to see them reduced.
Mr Brunstrom's tough line on law-breaking motorists has put his force under the spotlight several times in recent months.
In December a retired bank manager who became embroiled in a speeding row with him called for his resignation.
William Shaw, 71, was angered when chief constable Richard Brunstrom called a news conference to attack him after he complained about a speeding conviction in July.
The pensioner has written a detailed complaint against Mr Brunstrom to the North Wales Police Authority's professional standards committee which will consider the matter next month.
Mr Shaw lost a 50-year clean driving record when a speed camera in Flintshire caught driving at 39mph in a 30mph zone earlier this year.
He claimed in court his prosecution was unfair and said North Wales Police had misused their power.
Mr Shaw, from Llangollen, said he was pleading guilty in the hope magistrates would reject the case.
He is now calling for a public apology from the chief constable and his resignation.
In court he claimed he had completed a safe driving manoeuvre and police were hitting "soft targets" like him.
Magistrates fined Mr Shaw £60, with £30 costs and three penalty points, and said they had "every sympathy" with him.
Speaking at the time Mr Brunstrom said the pensioner had been "irresponsible" and was "misleading the public."
Mr Shaw's complaint against Mr Brunstrom will be discussed when the committee meet in January.
Members will meet in private with neither the chief constable nor Mr Shaw present.
A spokesman for the police authority said members will decide "if the complaint can be dealt with or if it has to be dealt with by an outside investigator."
Mr Brunstrom has been heavily criticised for his zero-tolerance policy against speeding motorists who he has described as "anti-social" and "criminals".
So, let me get this straight.
The speed nazis send you a "stern" letter telling you that you broke the law, and presumably no further action will be taken?
In that case, my response:
To: Arrive Alive.
Dear Speed Nazis,
I wish to thank you for your recent "stern" letter informing me of my gross transgression against "the law". The fact that i was targetted and recorded at 37mph is neither here nor there and has absolutley no bearing on my ability to travel safely while at this inflated speed.
Before sending me any more letters of this nature, please consider the following suggestion; Please print off at least 100 copies of the letter you sent me, then roll them into a tighty formed tube, before sequentially inserting them into an orifice of your choice.
Alternatively, insert them into your Chief Constable, preferably against his wishes, and in full view of the public.
Now, i bid you good day, and "bugger off".
Yours a grown up.
The speed nazis send you a "stern" letter telling you that you broke the law, and presumably no further action will be taken?
In that case, my response:
To: Arrive Alive.
Dear Speed Nazis,
I wish to thank you for your recent "stern" letter informing me of my gross transgression against "the law". The fact that i was targetted and recorded at 37mph is neither here nor there and has absolutley no bearing on my ability to travel safely while at this inflated speed.
Before sending me any more letters of this nature, please consider the following suggestion; Please print off at least 100 copies of the letter you sent me, then roll them into a tighty formed tube, before sequentially inserting them into an orifice of your choice.
Alternatively, insert them into your Chief Constable, preferably against his wishes, and in full view of the public.
Now, i bid you good day, and "bugger off".
Yours a grown up.
The Wiz said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3381739.stm
Drivers who are caught speeding in the North Wales Police force area, but who were not going fast enough to be fined, can expect letter telling them they have broken the law. The Welsh force - which has come under considerable criticism for its hard-line stance against speeding drivers - is the first in the UK to take the step.
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
Now, however, drivers who are caught doing 37mph are being sent stern letters warning them that they, too, are breaking the law.
Last month alone, as many as 500 warning letters were sent out.
The organisation which operates the cameras - Arrive Alive - has explained that the letters are aimed at getting people to slow down, and teaching road-users the dangers of speeding.
But the Chief Constable of North Wales, Richard Brunstrom, has already admitted that the thresholds at which drivers get fined are under review and he would like to see them reduced.
Mr Brunstrom's tough line on law-breaking motorists has put his force under the spotlight several times in recent months.
In December a retired bank manager who became embroiled in a speeding row with him called for his resignation.
William Shaw, 71, was angered when chief constable Richard Brunstrom called a news conference to attack him after he complained about a speeding conviction in July.
The pensioner has written a detailed complaint against Mr Brunstrom to the North Wales Police Authority's professional standards committee which will consider the matter next month.
Mr Shaw lost a 50-year clean driving record when a speed camera in Flintshire caught driving at 39mph in a 30mph zone earlier this year.
He claimed in court his prosecution was unfair and said North Wales Police had misused their power.
Mr Shaw, from Llangollen, said he was pleading guilty in the hope magistrates would reject the case.
He is now calling for a public apology from the chief constable and his resignation.
In court he claimed he had completed a safe driving manoeuvre and police were hitting "soft targets" like him.
Magistrates fined Mr Shaw £60, with £30 costs and three penalty points, and said they had "every sympathy" with him.
Speaking at the time Mr Brunstrom said the pensioner had been "irresponsible" and was "misleading the public."
Mr Shaw's complaint against Mr Brunstrom will be discussed when the committee meet in January.
Members will meet in private with neither the chief constable nor Mr Shaw present.
A spokesman for the police authority said members will decide "if the complaint can be dealt with or if it has to be dealt with by an outside investigator."
Mr Brunstrom has been heavily criticised for his zero-tolerance policy against speeding motorists who he has described as "anti-social" and "criminals".
The Daily Post has a report which includes this........
" Chief Supt Geraint Anwyl said the warning letter was another tool in the police armoury to stop speeding.
"It is a very high risk strategy for somebody to travel at 37mph," he said."
deltaf said:
So, let me get this straight.
The speed nazis send you a "stern" letter telling you that you broke the law, and presumably no further action will be taken?
In that case, my response:
To: Arrive Alive.
Dear Speed Nazis,
I wish to thank you for your recent "stern" letter informing me of my gross transgression against "the law". The fact that i was targetted and recorded at 37mph is neither here nor there and has absolutley no bearing on my ability to travel safely while at this inflated speed.
Before sending me any more letters of this nature, please consider the following suggestion; Please print off at least 100 copies of the letter you sent me, then roll them into a tighty formed tube, before sequentially inserting them into an orifice of your choice.
Alternatively, insert them into your Chief Constable, preferably against his wishes, and in full view of the public.
Now, i bid you good day, and "bugger off".
Yours a grown up.
[quote=The Wiz, quoting North Wales Daily Post]
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
Now, however, drivers who are caught doing 37mph are being sent stern letters warning them that they, too, are breaking the law.[/quote]
This has been spun as a "ramp up" but I suspect it of being a climb down. I'm almost certain that I have heard of prosecutions by Arrive Alive in North Wales for 35, 36 and 37mph.
I've had a word with the paper, and they would be extremely interested in any documentary evidence that Arrive Alive have previously prosecuted people below the claimed former threshold of +10% +5mph.
In the first instance, if you have been so prosecuted, or know someone who has, please get in touch with me by email to: psmith@safespeed.org.uk
This is an excellent chance to catch the lying gits at it.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
Now, however, drivers who are caught doing 37mph are being sent stern letters warning them that they, too, are breaking the law.[/quote]
This has been spun as a "ramp up" but I suspect it of being a climb down. I'm almost certain that I have heard of prosecutions by Arrive Alive in North Wales for 35, 36 and 37mph.
I've had a word with the paper, and they would be extremely interested in any documentary evidence that Arrive Alive have previously prosecuted people below the claimed former threshold of +10% +5mph.
In the first instance, if you have been so prosecuted, or know someone who has, please get in touch with me by email to: psmith@safespeed.org.uk
This is an excellent chance to catch the lying gits at it.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
deltaf said:
So, let me get this straight.
The speed nazis send you a "stern" letter telling you that you broke the law, and presumably no further action will be taken?
In that case, my response:
To: Arrive Alive.
Dear Speed Nazis,
I wish to thank you for your recent "stern" letter informing me of my gross transgression against "the law". The fact that i was targetted and recorded at 37mph is neither here nor there and has absolutley no bearing on my ability to travel safely while at this inflated speed.
Before sending me any more letters of this nature, please consider the following suggestion; Please print off at least 100 copies of the letter you sent me, then roll them into a tighty formed tube, before sequentially inserting them into an orifice of your choice.
Alternatively, insert them into your Chief Constable, preferably against his wishes, and in full view of the public.
Now, i bid you good day, and "bugger off".
Yours a grown up.
Nice one Deltaf
safespeed quoting The Wiz quoting North Wales Daily Post said:
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
...
This is an excellent chance to catch the lying gits at it.
Ah! But note the subtlety of it! Read the words in the report carefully (I would say the "totality" of it, but that might suggest I thought they were lying
): "
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
"
The use of the definite article in the first paragraph indicates a specific, but unidentified "zone". The reference in the second paragraph is to "the same zone".
I suggest that there is (at least) one area in N Wales where the speed limit is known (to the police) to be incorrectly posted and so they have not been enforcing it. By issuing these letters they avoid the issue being exposed in the courts. They also mitigate the potential for other illegally enforced limits to be hauled into the public spotlight.
Cynic? Moi?
Streaky
Unless ACPO have upped the ante my information/understanding is that ACPO Speed Enforcement Guidelines on prosecution was ten percent plus 2 and their table shows:
30mph - 35mph Fixed Penalty 50 mph - summons.
So isn't Blunderbus allowing more?
It also mentions:
This guidance does not and cannot replace the discretion of an officer and they may issue process re offences lower than those set out. In particular circumstances, driving at speed lower than the legal limit may result in prosecution for other offences, due care etc, when speed is inappropriate and inherently unsafe.
Hardly Adolf policy?
DVD
30mph - 35mph Fixed Penalty 50 mph - summons.
So isn't Blunderbus allowing more?
It also mentions:
This guidance does not and cannot replace the discretion of an officer and they may issue process re offences lower than those set out. In particular circumstances, driving at speed lower than the legal limit may result in prosecution for other offences, due care etc, when speed is inappropriate and inherently unsafe.
Hardly Adolf policy?
DVD
streaky said:
"
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
"
The use of the definite article in the first paragraph indicates a specific, but unidentified "zone". The reference in the second paragraph is to "the same zone".
I suggest that there is (at least) one area in N Wales where the speed limit is known (to the police) to be incorrectly posted and so they have not been enforcing it. By issuing these letters they avoid the issue being exposed in the courts. They also mitigate the potential for other illegally enforced limits to be hauled into the public spotlight.
Cynic? Moi?
Streaky
As I understand it...
THE is the Definite Article
A and AN are both used for the Indefinite Article
"The boy" refers to a definite, particular boy, but "A boy" refers to no particular boy; it could be any boy.
So strictly they're referring to any 30 limit
Of course as Brake and others have shown, when dealing with the media what was actually said has no relevance whatsoever anyway.
There must be people out there that have been done for less than 38 in a N Wales 30 limit, just need to find some.
d-man said:You are correct. I deleted a paragraph explaining that in this case the use of the definite article could be taken to describe a (one, singular) specific area, whereas the use of the indefinite article could be taken to embrace the totality (
"
A motorist can expect a £60 fine and three penalty points on the licence if caught doing 38mph or more in a 30mph zone in the force area.
But, until recently, if a motorist was clocked at 37mph in the same zone, nothing would be done.
"
The use of the definite article in the first paragraph indicates a specific, but unidentified "zone". The reference in the second paragraph is to "the same zone".
I suggest that there is (at least) one area in N Wales where the speed limit is known (to the police) to be incorrectly posted and so they have not been enforcing it. By issuing these letters they avoid the issue being exposed in the courts. They also mitigate the potential for other illegally enforced limits to be hauled into the public spotlight.
Cynic? Moi?
Streaky
As I understand it...
THE is the Definite Article
A and AN are both used for the Indefinite Article
...
) of the 30mph zones in N. Wales and that the reference to "the same zone" reinforced this, ... and I didn't correct what I left in - StreakyGassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff