Discussion
Firstly, my appologies for butting in earlier with a light hearted comment on what turned out to be quite a heated, but veering 'off topic' thread, sorry cerbie guys,
Meanwhile, from the same thread: ..everything TVR is crap quality..
How many of the parts that fail are actually manufactured by TVR? Is it just that they can't bolt them together very well or underspec/badly spec?
My point: Would they meet/be bankrupted by ISO9002??
Recent Cerbera threads, (and wading through the cars' profiles on these esteemed pages) have forced me to reconsider, in reality I couldn't afford the running costs of the Cerb
- on the bright side though i'll have a Chim much sooner, which was the origonal motivation when I started saving ages ago 
!!
BTW, hi everyone!
Very informative and entertaining forum. Any chance of crashing (pun intended) the next Bristol meet? 
Meanwhile, from the same thread: ..everything TVR is crap quality..
How many of the parts that fail are actually manufactured by TVR? Is it just that they can't bolt them together very well or underspec/badly spec?
My point: Would they meet/be bankrupted by ISO9002??
Recent Cerbera threads, (and wading through the cars' profiles on these esteemed pages) have forced me to reconsider, in reality I couldn't afford the running costs of the Cerb
- on the bright side though i'll have a Chim much sooner, which was the origonal motivation when I started saving ages ago !! BTW, hi everyone!
Very informative and entertaining forum. Any chance of crashing (pun intended) the next Bristol meet? quote:
I don't think there's enough motivation for them to go for it. They make cars, people buy them. Removing the anecdotal evidence of problems is what's needed not a piece of paper.
Again, people complain and advertise problems, but rarely will someone say - Hmm, car started ok this morning.. Why ? Booorrrriiinnngggg... So let me be boring. Car has started first time every time for the last 4 months, probably because I am using her a lot at the moment.
Problems posted on here are not indicative of Every car made and all owners, and surely even a complete moron would be able to see that ?
I am absolutely commited to a TVR purchase, I've waded through all the threads - I know how many TVR owners there are on here, I know those who are on for the sake of being on and those who have a genuine greivance. The stuff on here has been invaluable to me and it is entirely down to the information on these pages that I have decided to look for a Chim instead of a Cerb (though admittedly money and impatience figured quite stongly 
). Of course I want a good one, but I now know what to look for and how to look for it...
). Of course I want a good one, but I now know what to look for and how to look for it... quote:
I am absolutely commited to a TVR purchase
You know it makes sense..
Well, it may not make sense but what the hell, you only live once.. unless someone can prove reincarnation that is
And with my completely unbiased Chimaera owner hat on, I must say that IMHO you are gonna get the sexiest looking beast of them all..
quote:
Again, people complain and advertise problems, but rarely will someone say - Hmm, car started ok this morning.. Why ? Booorrrriiinnngggg... So let me be boring. Car has started first time every time for the last 4 months, probably because I am using her a lot at the moment.
Problems posted on here are not indicative of Every car made and all owners, and surely even a complete moron would be able to see that ?
Conversely most of the cars that you would consider to be cr*p seem to do very well on surveys such as the JD Power one.
I have a theory why this is so;
a. The owners have to want to submit their info, therefore it does not cover a broad enough spectrum of customers and is not random.
b. This leads to people who buy sh*te cars submitting a glowing report, i.e. it starts and gets me from A to B and the dealers are luvverly (read cheap), this is self justification i.e. trying to convince everyone else the boring car they own is a good car cos the survey says it is type of thing..
c. Owners of cars that are enjoyable to drive and reliable, do not submit info if they are happy (too busy living their life and driving).
d. This then only leaves the people with problems who have an axe to grind, skewering the end result.
So next time you see the results of a customer satisfaction survey ask yourself, particularly if you think the results are 'odd' and don't sit well with your gut. Is this car so good that every owner has written in to praise it! or are they just dipsticks that want to justify their buying such a bland piece of cr*p in the first place.
The other type is, those who have problems and they want to let you and the world know about it, which is the angle you will get from these threads.
This leads me to the conclusion, don't believe any statistic, form your own opinions. If you have to listen to other people’s opinion, take it with a pinch of salt and try see what their angle is on it, good and bad.
Obviously all IMHO, rant off
Harry
I used to work for an ISO registered company. As quinny implies, its a measure of doing what you say you will do. If you agree that your aim is to manufacture crap, and meticulously document the necessary processes, details, tools and methodology of crap making, and follow them to the absolute letter, then your accreditation will be secure.
If there is any doubt that you may be deviating from the prescribed method of making crap then the way to deal with this is to take the ISO auditors out to lunch, try to get them drunk and remark upon how good their new brown jacket matches their corduroy trousers. If all else fails, then remind them who pays their fee.
And about statistics. Well, I work for very large tobacco company and apparently statistics show that smoking can kill. Have you ever heard of something so absurd?...
If there is any doubt that you may be deviating from the prescribed method of making crap then the way to deal with this is to take the ISO auditors out to lunch, try to get them drunk and remark upon how good their new brown jacket matches their corduroy trousers. If all else fails, then remind them who pays their fee.
And about statistics. Well, I work for very large tobacco company and apparently statistics show that smoking can kill. Have you ever heard of something so absurd?...
quote:
If there is any doubt that you may be deviating from the prescribed method of making crap then the way to deal with this is to take the ISO auditors out to lunch, try to get them drunk and remark upon how good their new brown jacket matches their corduroy trousers.
...Err, s'pose I've worked under those very guide lines too, in a previous incarnation and recognise the refs : oops, no corduroy smileys!:
Think our esteemed Mr Ted sums it up with - paraphrasing - TVR make cars, people buy them..
i'm sure it's got better now, or is fluoxetine hydrochloride compulsory with each new purchase..
discuss
quote:
If there is any doubt that you may be deviating from the prescribed method of making crap then the way to deal with this is to take the ISO auditors out to lunch, try to get them drunk and remark upon how good their new brown jacket matches their corduroy trousers.
One MD I knew, quite by accident I'm sure:
:, after a long flight drove back to the office and parked his car into the auditor's nice new Jag. Took his mind off the auditing. Evening meal at the local dodgy curry house 
works as well for audits lasting a few days. You do get different angles for audits. Some go looking for evidence that the procedures are being implemented. Others, FDA for example, go looking for evidence that the procedures are not be implemented. Subtle but very important distinction.
Personally, I don't think TVR will bother. And how many of the faults are in parts they produce anyway. The low volumes they buy in give them very little clout when their ISO9002 statistics highlight a supplier problem.
>> Edited by barter on Thursday 14th March 10:08
quote:
ISO9002 is no gaurantee of good quality as it is just a system of managment that shows tracability. If you make a crap product but are ISO registered, as long as you carry on making crap you'll keep your registration. The ISO auditers never look at a single manufactured item when they audit the place I work, but watch out if they find a piece of paper in the wrong place!! Waste of time and money.
Quinny
Totally concur with Quinny here - document your processes and what to do when you have an exception. Then stick to them - that is all that ISO9002 means. It is not a guarantee of quality but simply that you can follow the procedures - hence imply a level of consistency (or quality).
Same goes for the other standards too....
Cheers,
Paul
Putting on my Devils Advocate hat 
...if your procedures describe how to make a brilliant car then you should be making a brilliant car everytime! This is where ISO9002 works.
Its just unfortunate that the standard doesn't insist that the procedures describe such a good product. Only that they describe A product and they don't have to be complete!
When properly applied and fault reports fed back into the system a steadily improving product can result. But you have to do more than just follow the ISO9002 regs.
Obviously TVR were using the 'brilliant' procedures for the 2 Chimaeras I've had.
Sorry for the rant. Spent 12 years in the medical industry where you can't just pay lip service to regs and you begin to see what can be done if you go above and beyond the standards.
...if your procedures describe how to make a brilliant car then you should be making a brilliant car everytime! This is where ISO9002 works. Its just unfortunate that the standard doesn't insist that the procedures describe such a good product. Only that they describe A product and they don't have to be complete!
When properly applied and fault reports fed back into the system a steadily improving product can result. But you have to do more than just follow the ISO9002 regs.
Obviously TVR were using the 'brilliant' procedures for the 2 Chimaeras I've had.
Sorry for the rant. Spent 12 years in the medical industry where you can't just pay lip service to regs and you begin to see what can be done if you go above and beyond the standards.
As with most things - its OK to criticise the standards such as ISO and BSI, but in the absence of anything alternative we dont have much choice...
BS7799 for example - it covers information security - a bit wishy washy and doesnt cover much. But as a baseline it an excellent guide to ensure that information is secure - doesnt dictate much, but ensures that everyone sticks to the letter and therefore less chance of a screw-up.
One final point though - auditing - yes these organisations make money on auditing people to conformity of the standards. But who audits the auditors? Who guarantees that you get the best quality one each time? All sort of falls down at that point....
Cheers,
Paul
BS7799 for example - it covers information security - a bit wishy washy and doesnt cover much. But as a baseline it an excellent guide to ensure that information is secure - doesnt dictate much, but ensures that everyone sticks to the letter and therefore less chance of a screw-up.
One final point though - auditing - yes these organisations make money on auditing people to conformity of the standards. But who audits the auditors? Who guarantees that you get the best quality one each time? All sort of falls down at that point....
Cheers,
Paul
Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff