Fiat 126 BIS - want to put bike engine in!
Discussion
Hiya,
I have just bought a Fiat 126 BIS (Have an old aircooled one too). I have had some bad luck with the engine and it basically needs a new one !
Whatever I do, I will have to do it myself because of the cost so I thought why not put a bike engine in. I do need to ask a few questions, I'm sorry if they are silly but I'm a bit new to this.
1) What engine ?
I need an engine that I can get relatively cheaply (say £175 max). The current engine is 2 cylinder, 700 cc, 24 bhp. I understand that most bike engines would be so much more powerful that this :-S
(btw, the car weights 640kg approx)
2) Gearbox
This may seem silly idea but could I not use the current gearbox, and have some sort of chain drive from the engine to the gearbox ? Using sprockets so that the ratio could be pretty much the same. The only problem I can see with this is that the gearbox may not be up to it. But if I didn't do this what would I do about the diff and reverse (and putting a reverse unit in is too expensive to consider, lol)
3) Mounting
I gather you can weld in some sort of frame to mount the engine ?
Thanks for reading !!!
Patrick
patrick@butterfly-net.co.uk
I have just bought a Fiat 126 BIS (Have an old aircooled one too). I have had some bad luck with the engine and it basically needs a new one !
Whatever I do, I will have to do it myself because of the cost so I thought why not put a bike engine in. I do need to ask a few questions, I'm sorry if they are silly but I'm a bit new to this.
1) What engine ?
I need an engine that I can get relatively cheaply (say £175 max). The current engine is 2 cylinder, 700 cc, 24 bhp. I understand that most bike engines would be so much more powerful that this :-S
(btw, the car weights 640kg approx)
2) Gearbox
This may seem silly idea but could I not use the current gearbox, and have some sort of chain drive from the engine to the gearbox ? Using sprockets so that the ratio could be pretty much the same. The only problem I can see with this is that the gearbox may not be up to it. But if I didn't do this what would I do about the diff and reverse (and putting a reverse unit in is too expensive to consider, lol)
3) Mounting
I gather you can weld in some sort of frame to mount the engine ?
Thanks for reading !!!
Patrick
patrick@butterfly-net.co.uk
quote:
1) What engine ?
I need an engine that I can get relatively cheaply (say £175 max). The current engine is 2 cylinder, 700 cc, 24 bhp. I understand that most bike engines would be so much more powerful that this :-S
(btw, the car weights 640kg approx)
A: You should use an aircooled bike engine as well, I sugest the Suzuki 500cc 2 cylinder from the GS 500 ( I don't know the name used in England)
quote:
2) Gearbox
This may seem silly idea but could I not use the current gearbox, and have some sort of chain drive from the engine to the gearbox ? Using sprockets so that the ratio could be pretty much the same. The only problem I can see with this is that the gearbox may not be up to it. But if I didn't do this what would I do about the diff and reverse (and putting a reverse unit in is too expensive to consider, lol)
A: Tricky one, in my opinion you should use the bike gearbox, OK probably this solution can be more expensive because you have no reverse or diff but instead you will enjoy the sequential gearbox.
What you do is try out a solution using the FIAT diff and find one way to invert the rotation. That's posible and I know one french guy that made that with VW gearbox. DON'T ASK HOW...
quote:
3) Mounting
I gather you can weld in some sort of frame to mount the engine ?
No idea, I need to know engine bay and original transmission position.
Thanks very much for your reply !
I'll have to look in to adapting the gearbox. Another option is to just leave the fiat gear box in 4th permently and use the bike gearbox, although this is not very suitable!
What's it like driving a car without diff ? Will it turn properly ?
I will post more soon !
I'll have to look in to adapting the gearbox. Another option is to just leave the fiat gear box in 4th permently and use the bike gearbox, although this is not very suitable!
What's it like driving a car without diff ? Will it turn properly ?
I will post more soon !
quote:
What's it like driving a car without diff ? Will it turn properly ?
Tiggerthump, you're a loon!! Top marks for the effort! My very limited mechanical knowledge tells me that if you drive a car without a diff, the straight bits will be ok, but when you turn a corner, you'll be dragging one of the wheels. That cant be any good or the handling or the tyre wear, and is therefore inadvisable.
Re: the gearbox, I believe that some bike powered cars use the bike gearbox only and use some sort of system to 'turn it round' for reverse. Hence, you get 6 (or whatever) reverse gears.
Good luck whatever happens...
>> Edited by currymonster on Thursday 14th March 12:53
You can find the solution to your problem in this website:
www.quaife.co.uk
They have some experience in this kind mods.
www.quaife.co.uk
They have some experience in this kind mods.
Not quite what you need but I once heard of someone who put a 2 litre Lancia twin cam engine in a 126. Just pulled out the whole drivetrain from the Lancia and fitted it to the FIAT. Some body mods were necessary to accommodate the track of the old Lancia.
Should give you BHP at a cheap price.
Should give you BHP at a cheap price.
This has already been done by several Fiat 500 / 126 nuts around the world. I was considering it myself but I have several other very expensive projects under way so it will have to wait!
Engine wise it would be a good idea to go for a torquier engine rather than a screamer. I'd suggest a V-twin of some description or a V4. One guy I read about used a Honda VFR750. Having said this, the newer 1000cc four cylinder engines are very torquey so a CBR1000, ZZR1100 or Yamaha FZR1000 could be just the ticket. The BMW boxer engine may be a possibility too as this is a nice torquey unit, not hugely power, but does offer a shaft-drive which will be easier to employ and more refined.
Personally I'd go for using the bikes gearbox and talk to Quaife about one of their diffs which also include a clever reverse option. They aren't cheap I'm afraid but they are by far the tidiest solution.
There is plenty of room to mount the engine in the rear, you'll just need to offer it up and work out where to weld new mounting points.
One of the most expensive parts of this conversion is likely to be the brakes as the standard items will be hopelessly inadequate. You are looking at going from a 20ish BHP engine up to something around 100bhp (or at least you should be!). You'll have a supercar power to weight ratio so you'll need new stoppers to suit. No doubt this will require new hub assemblies and wheels plus a complete suspension rethink. I'd look to a Fiat specialist for help on this as they may have already fitted Uno Turbo brakes to a 126 for example.
If you are serious about this I suggest posting a question to the Fiat 500 forum on www.fiat500club.org.uk just to get the ball rolling. These guys will be able to point you in the right direction as far as Fiat specialists go.
Good luck!
Engine wise it would be a good idea to go for a torquier engine rather than a screamer. I'd suggest a V-twin of some description or a V4. One guy I read about used a Honda VFR750. Having said this, the newer 1000cc four cylinder engines are very torquey so a CBR1000, ZZR1100 or Yamaha FZR1000 could be just the ticket. The BMW boxer engine may be a possibility too as this is a nice torquey unit, not hugely power, but does offer a shaft-drive which will be easier to employ and more refined.
Personally I'd go for using the bikes gearbox and talk to Quaife about one of their diffs which also include a clever reverse option. They aren't cheap I'm afraid but they are by far the tidiest solution.
There is plenty of room to mount the engine in the rear, you'll just need to offer it up and work out where to weld new mounting points.
One of the most expensive parts of this conversion is likely to be the brakes as the standard items will be hopelessly inadequate. You are looking at going from a 20ish BHP engine up to something around 100bhp (or at least you should be!). You'll have a supercar power to weight ratio so you'll need new stoppers to suit. No doubt this will require new hub assemblies and wheels plus a complete suspension rethink. I'd look to a Fiat specialist for help on this as they may have already fitted Uno Turbo brakes to a 126 for example.
If you are serious about this I suggest posting a question to the Fiat 500 forum on www.fiat500club.org.uk just to get the ball rolling. These guys will be able to point you in the right direction as far as Fiat specialists go.
Good luck!
Hiya, just a little update!
I rebuilt the engine in my Fiat 126 BIS (the water cooled one), so that's all sorted now! But started some mad work on my Air cooled Fiat 126. So far I have cut the roof off, trimed it all down with angle grinder, cut all the dash back (off), ripped engine and gear box out. The current plan is to cut the rear corners off the car and fit the rear end of a motorbike.... exciting hey ?
Hoping to cut most of the rear body away and fabricate a new 'pointy' rear. I'm at the stage about wandering about which motorbike, and need to ask a few ppl. I think something around the 500cc / 40-60bhp would be amazing considering how light the car is. I think a watercooled engine might be a good idea (?), on the other hand, air ducts could be arranged to flow air over the engine.
I know strength of the body is going to be a issue...
Any ideas as to a motorbike that would be suitable ?
Tiggerthump
I rebuilt the engine in my Fiat 126 BIS (the water cooled one), so that's all sorted now! But started some mad work on my Air cooled Fiat 126. So far I have cut the roof off, trimed it all down with angle grinder, cut all the dash back (off), ripped engine and gear box out. The current plan is to cut the rear corners off the car and fit the rear end of a motorbike.... exciting hey ?
Hoping to cut most of the rear body away and fabricate a new 'pointy' rear. I'm at the stage about wandering about which motorbike, and need to ask a few ppl. I think something around the 500cc / 40-60bhp would be amazing considering how light the car is. I think a watercooled engine might be a good idea (?), on the other hand, air ducts could be arranged to flow air over the engine.
I know strength of the body is going to be a issue...
Any ideas as to a motorbike that would be suitable ?
Tiggerthump
Personally, having gone this far, I'd put something bigger in it than a 500cc as while newer lower capacity bikes are quite quite, older ones certainly aren't. I think I'd go for an older bmw shaft drive so you'd have the torque of the bigger engine (although not a massive power hike) and the maintenance free (relatively) shaft drive rather than a chain. Basically anything around 1000cc and shaft drive would do the job which covers loads of torquey tourers.
Mind you, if you want to go for chain drive, how about an old vfr750 (not a VF750 whatever you do). The vfr750 engine is a 750 V4 and is one of the most over-engineered engines in the history of engines. Honda's previous bike (the VF750) self-destructed about a mile away from the showroom so they built the VFR750 to last forever which gear driven cams and all sorts. If you hunt around you should be able to pick up an old one as there are plenty of them still around.
Mark
Mind you, if you want to go for chain drive, how about an old vfr750 (not a VF750 whatever you do). The vfr750 engine is a 750 V4 and is one of the most over-engineered engines in the history of engines. Honda's previous bike (the VF750) self-destructed about a mile away from the showroom so they built the VFR750 to last forever which gear driven cams and all sorts. If you hunt around you should be able to pick up an old one as there are plenty of them still around.
Mark
top idea, the thing to check is not bhp but torque as the car will weigh a lot more than the bike the engine came from.
i reckon you need at least 750cc, probably more like a litre.
I am thinking along the same lines for one of the dead 126 bis in my garden!
whatever please junk the std gearbox as they have enough trouble coping with 26 bhp!
i reckon you need at least 750cc, probably more like a litre.
I am thinking along the same lines for one of the dead 126 bis in my garden!
whatever please junk the std gearbox as they have enough trouble coping with 26 bhp!
Hi, I'm working on the same concept,I have an old fiat 126 and hopefully next month it will have a roof chop.
It will need steel tube reinforcements welded to the chassis, otherwise it will flex.
In Italy a few guys tried swapping motobike engines with the original, but had problems with clutches and gearboxes(to much power!).
You could try putting another engine, how about a fiat UNO engine, an abarth tuned version with 70HP.I've seen an Alfa Romeo 33 boxer engine in one. You would need a template between gearbox and engine to fit the new motor.
The gearbox can handle a maximum of 70 hp, before crunching the gears, or buy a new 5 speed gearbox in italy from NANNI.
My project is a mini speedster.....what is yours?
Good luck with your project and hopefully by september or october we can have something to talk about, if everything works???!!!!!!! hopefully!!
ciao
Italo
It will need steel tube reinforcements welded to the chassis, otherwise it will flex.
In Italy a few guys tried swapping motobike engines with the original, but had problems with clutches and gearboxes(to much power!).
You could try putting another engine, how about a fiat UNO engine, an abarth tuned version with 70HP.I've seen an Alfa Romeo 33 boxer engine in one. You would need a template between gearbox and engine to fit the new motor.
The gearbox can handle a maximum of 70 hp, before crunching the gears, or buy a new 5 speed gearbox in italy from NANNI.
My project is a mini speedster.....what is yours?
Good luck with your project and hopefully by september or october we can have something to talk about, if everything works???!!!!!!! hopefully!!
ciao
Italo
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