diesel sevens ?
Discussion
There was a good thread on this over on locostbuilders.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid...
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid...
bobdylan said:
What would the pros and cons be of a diesel caterham be ?
Weight. Even the heavier petrol engines really blunt the handling of Seven-type cars and diesels tend to be heavier because of the combustion pressures they deal with. Also, I'm not convinced the engine response is there to exploit the handling of a lightweight sports car in most diesels. And, finally, the cooling requirements would get quite complicated in a kit. Turbos get hot, most run substantial intercoolers and the engine management on a modern diesel is hugely complex for a home builder to transfer when you start getting rid of CAN networks, closed-loop aftertreatment systems and so on.Don't get me wrong - I'm not a diesel hater (in fact, in a previous life I developed them for a big car company) - and I think the world is ready for a genuinely sporty diesel, but I don't think a minimalist design like a Seven is the place to do it. Besides the weight issue, the aerodynamics of a Seven are so laughably poor that at higher speeds its economy advantage evaporates.
CraigJ said:
There was a diesel Westfield build feature done in PPC mag not long ago. they used the 1.9 from a Audi A4.
IIRC Chris Smith,the founder of Westfield actually raced a diesel powered SE in the 750 Club Kit Car class severalyears ago,did quite well against the petrol opposition as well,(mind you, Chris is/was no mean pedaller in sports cars.)And what about the sound aspect?
There's no finer aural accompaniment than a "cammy" engine on sidedraughts coming on song and screaming for the redline!
I can't understand the people who fit ICE to their "sevens" either.
The clatter of a stinkwheel would, frankly, be embarrassing.
The gearing could also be problematic. A comparatively low revving oil burner usually needs a very low final drive ratio. Not easily achieved if using the usual Ford components.
The unusual aerodynamics of a "seven" have already been mooted. The exponentially rising drag factor is best counteracted with a rising torque curve. In other words, a petrol engine.
Don't let any of this put you off though.
Unless you are sane, that is!
Geoff
There's no finer aural accompaniment than a "cammy" engine on sidedraughts coming on song and screaming for the redline!
I can't understand the people who fit ICE to their "sevens" either.
The clatter of a stinkwheel would, frankly, be embarrassing.
The gearing could also be problematic. A comparatively low revving oil burner usually needs a very low final drive ratio. Not easily achieved if using the usual Ford components.
The unusual aerodynamics of a "seven" have already been mooted. The exponentially rising drag factor is best counteracted with a rising torque curve. In other words, a petrol engine.
Don't let any of this put you off though.
Unless you are sane, that is!
Geoff
thescamper said:
Haven't Westfield done it. I'm sure there was a diesel westy.
Yes. They did one with a 1.9 Sierra diesel in it in the 90's I think. CraigJ said:
There was a diesel Westfield build feature done in PPC mag not long ago. they used the 1.9 from a Audi A4.
Wouldn't put anything past 'Scrapyard Bodger Magazine'. 
Dave Dax builder said:
A diesel sports car??? HMMMMMM???!!!
The R15 is a tiny bit bigger than the average Seven (maybe not an early Robin Hood though Edited by Dave Dax builder on Tuesday 29th September 23:31
) not to mention somewhat more high tech. I'd love to see something like the diesel R8 that Audi previewed a while back make it to production, but I don't think a Seven is the way forward.JonRB said:
CanAm said:
IIRC it was known as the Westfield Weasel - very apt. 
From memory it did 0-60 in around 6 seconds and returned 60mpg. Which in those days was reasonably impressive. CanAm said:
JonRB said:
CanAm said:
IIRC it was known as the Westfield Weasel - very apt.
From memory it did 0-60 in around 6 seconds and returned 60mpg. Which in those days was reasonably impressive. Auntieroll said:
CraigJ said:
There was a diesel Westfield build feature done in PPC mag not long ago. they used the 1.9 from a Audi A4.
IIRC Chris Smith,the founder of Westfield actually raced a diesel powered SE in the 750 Club Kit Car class severalyears ago,did quite well against the petrol opposition as well,(mind you, Chris is/was no mean pedaller in sports cars.)For what it's worth, on Westie diesels:
Yes the original 'Weasel' headlined with "60 in 6 secs and 60mpg". However, traction off the line was an issue, and "30-70 through the gears faster than a Ferrari Testarossa" sounds a lot more impressive, even by todays standards.
It was also in a conservative state of tune, even relative to being a horrendously outdated 1980s Ford diesel.
I went out in that car in 2003, having been repaired by then owner Nigel near Leeds, driven by Westfield guru Paul from Play's Kool Motorsport. It had so much torque from tickover you didn't need to touch the accelerator to go through the gears!
I met up with John Reynolds about 7 years ago, he must have been one of the original diesel enthusiasts, and was running a Mk3 Golf GL TDi at up to 190bhp (variable states of tune) up from a stock 90bhp! That was not the most impressive part, aside from sitting lower on VW 15" alloys, and larger brakes peeking through, the car looked stock - the original stealth derv monster! Even better than that, when I saw him he used it regularly to commute, to pull caravans and for trackdays: it was only on it's second clutch and was pushing 1/4 million miles, and he'd been tuning it since soon after he bought it new - bloody impressive!
The relevance of John's escapades with Dubs (I think the first community to adopt performance diesel tuning but by all means debate) lead to doing serious development on a later 1.9 TDI PD 130 engine. Then he decided to fit it to a lightweight Westfield! We lost touch after he moved jobs, it was before Facebook days and his name's too common to Google, so if you're out there or somebody knows John, I'd love to know if the project was ever finished and what he's working on now.
The other 2 I know about are well-known Paul R's red Westie diesel with a Ford 1.8 engine, and a guy over in NI who fitted a VAG 1.9 110 engine (again if he's on here please get in touch!).
I've since wondered long and hard about lightweight seven style cars and economy. 2 things sprung to mind: LPG and the small generation of diesels. LPG because it burns clean and the modern systems don't lose any power, and the weight penalty would be offset if you had NO petrol option at all, especially with the new Prins technology due out next year. Yes there's some weight to the cylinder tanks, but they are actually much stronger and safer than the petrol equivalent. On diesels, the new generation of 1.3 and 1.4 common rail and pump duse engines would make a lot more sense than something the size/weight of a 1.9. And I'd be curious to know what a DSG would be like in a sports car, although it does add over 40kg which is not good really. All just musings, but one day, one day....
If anyone wants to talk about ECU Remapping, it is my passion and my day job, so for advice, a good deal or just a chat give me a shout on 07967602264 or orwilkinson@aol.com
Cheers, Ollie
Yes the original 'Weasel' headlined with "60 in 6 secs and 60mpg". However, traction off the line was an issue, and "30-70 through the gears faster than a Ferrari Testarossa" sounds a lot more impressive, even by todays standards.
It was also in a conservative state of tune, even relative to being a horrendously outdated 1980s Ford diesel.
I went out in that car in 2003, having been repaired by then owner Nigel near Leeds, driven by Westfield guru Paul from Play's Kool Motorsport. It had so much torque from tickover you didn't need to touch the accelerator to go through the gears!
I met up with John Reynolds about 7 years ago, he must have been one of the original diesel enthusiasts, and was running a Mk3 Golf GL TDi at up to 190bhp (variable states of tune) up from a stock 90bhp! That was not the most impressive part, aside from sitting lower on VW 15" alloys, and larger brakes peeking through, the car looked stock - the original stealth derv monster! Even better than that, when I saw him he used it regularly to commute, to pull caravans and for trackdays: it was only on it's second clutch and was pushing 1/4 million miles, and he'd been tuning it since soon after he bought it new - bloody impressive!
The relevance of John's escapades with Dubs (I think the first community to adopt performance diesel tuning but by all means debate) lead to doing serious development on a later 1.9 TDI PD 130 engine. Then he decided to fit it to a lightweight Westfield! We lost touch after he moved jobs, it was before Facebook days and his name's too common to Google, so if you're out there or somebody knows John, I'd love to know if the project was ever finished and what he's working on now.
The other 2 I know about are well-known Paul R's red Westie diesel with a Ford 1.8 engine, and a guy over in NI who fitted a VAG 1.9 110 engine (again if he's on here please get in touch!).
I've since wondered long and hard about lightweight seven style cars and economy. 2 things sprung to mind: LPG and the small generation of diesels. LPG because it burns clean and the modern systems don't lose any power, and the weight penalty would be offset if you had NO petrol option at all, especially with the new Prins technology due out next year. Yes there's some weight to the cylinder tanks, but they are actually much stronger and safer than the petrol equivalent. On diesels, the new generation of 1.3 and 1.4 common rail and pump duse engines would make a lot more sense than something the size/weight of a 1.9. And I'd be curious to know what a DSG would be like in a sports car, although it does add over 40kg which is not good really. All just musings, but one day, one day....
If anyone wants to talk about ECU Remapping, it is my passion and my day job, so for advice, a good deal or just a chat give me a shout on 07967602264 or orwilkinson@aol.com
Cheers, Ollie
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