First Kit car for £5k-ish - Help!
Discussion
My dad has decided he wants to start doing trackdays, and I've told him his 996 Cabriolet isn't really a suitable track weapon, too heavy on consumables etc, and convinced him he needs a kit car in his life.
We are looking at cars that are circa £5k, and have been looking at Tigers, Mk's etc. I have spotted this in the classifieds that looks really nice, and its very local to us too.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1200162.htm
My only concern is that it is Pinto powered, which I'm not so sure is such a good thing, but I'm not really sure why. I'd ideally like something Zetec or XE powered, with injection for simplicity, but I get the feeling I'd be looking at slightly rougher examples in this price bracket.
The main problem we have is I don't really know much about these sort of things, I've driven an XE powered Tiger that a mate had, it was hugely fast but had no servo assistance on the brakes
and I didn't really drive it enough to properly evaluate it. The car would be used for road and track so needs to be relatively useable...
Any help/guidance very much appreciated...
We are looking at cars that are circa £5k, and have been looking at Tigers, Mk's etc. I have spotted this in the classifieds that looks really nice, and its very local to us too.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1200162.htm
My only concern is that it is Pinto powered, which I'm not so sure is such a good thing, but I'm not really sure why. I'd ideally like something Zetec or XE powered, with injection for simplicity, but I get the feeling I'd be looking at slightly rougher examples in this price bracket.
The main problem we have is I don't really know much about these sort of things, I've driven an XE powered Tiger that a mate had, it was hugely fast but had no servo assistance on the brakes
and I didn't really drive it enough to properly evaluate it. The car would be used for road and track so needs to be relatively useable...Any help/guidance very much appreciated...
OllieWinchester said:
...it was hugely fast but had no servo assistance on the brakes
Sevens never have servo assisted brakes!The MK indy is OK, but you're right to think that the Pinto isn't the best engine; it's a real boat-anchor (so blunts the handling) and isn't the most reliable or tunable unit for track use. Shame, 'cos otherwise that car looks quite nice...
If it's specifically for track use, you'd be better off with a Sylva, and you ought to be able to find one with a better engine (Crossflow, Fiat Twin Cam or possibly even Zetec) within your budget range.
Finally... remember that asking prices bear only a slight resemblance to selling prices.
Hi Ollie,
What do you want out of the car?
There's a huge amount of choice from the various Seven Clones (I'd go for a Sylva Striker at that budget without a moment's hesitation by the way...) but you could also get something like this:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1209137.htm
Ok, that's a tiny bit out of budget, but you do see reputedly nice Furys and Stylus (Stylii?) for the £5k mark. They're usefully quicker than Sevens at higher speeds (because of a very noticeable drag reduction), have a development of one of the best Seven-a-like chassis underneath and potentially provide a bit more weather protection and practicality if you want to use one on the road.
What do you want out of the car?
There's a huge amount of choice from the various Seven Clones (I'd go for a Sylva Striker at that budget without a moment's hesitation by the way...) but you could also get something like this:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1209137.htm
Ok, that's a tiny bit out of budget, but you do see reputedly nice Furys and Stylus (Stylii?) for the £5k mark. They're usefully quicker than Sevens at higher speeds (because of a very noticeable drag reduction), have a development of one of the best Seven-a-like chassis underneath and potentially provide a bit more weather protection and practicality if you want to use one on the road.
Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 1st October 13:31
Sam_68 said:
OllieWinchester said:
...it was hugely fast but had no servo assistance on the brakes
Sevens never have servo assisted brakes!Really like the Fisher Fury and similar beasties, am I right in thinking a decent 1700 X-flow is a better proposition than the pinto then? I'de really like an injection Zetec or XE or something because I'd imagine it would be more reliable, neither me or my dad are particularly handy with spanners.
Its a shame because that Indy ticks all the boxes other than the motor.Sam_68 said:
Finally... remember that asking prices bear only a slight resemblance to selling prices.
Good point, one of the things I'm trying to make my dad understand is that there will be a huge disparity in terms of quality between a good kit and a bad one, and this won't necessarily be reflected in the price. I think we'll need to look at a few to get a good handle of what is good and what is not. Any owners in Hampshire mind letting my dad have a look at their car?One final question, I understand Robin Hoods are pretty much universally thought of as not really comparable to the rest of the crop. Why is this?
Chris71 said:
What do you want out of the car?
Well, we want it as a track-tool, that is equally at home going for an early morning hoon, or a Sunday blast. I don't mind no creature comforts, that comes with the territory so aeroscreen is fine for example, just something that is reliable, fun and quick on track, whilst also being tractable and comfortable enough to go cruising in on sunny days.Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 1st October 13:31
ETA - That Fisher is beautiful....
Edited by OllieWinchester on Thursday 1st October 14:25
Firstly, for a first car to start trackdays with, a 7 probably isn't ideal. It would be an idea for him to do at least 1 in the Porsche firstly as a bit of experience, and secondly to see whether he actually likes trackdays or not. He might decide it is not really for him and then he will feel supid for buying a dedicated track car for something he doesn't even like.
Just something to think about before you start deciding which model/engine is best.
Just something to think about before you start deciding which model/engine is best.
Yeah, good point. We have decided we are probably going to do at least one first, either in the Porsche or in my Eunos.
ETA - Sylva Striker's, in fact Sylva's in general are not something I've heard much about, what makes them so good?
ETA - Sylva Striker's, in fact Sylva's in general are not something I've heard much about, what makes them so good?
Edited by OllieWinchester on Thursday 1st October 15:16
for a track hack at that money, I'd look more at the spec of the bits - i.e. motor, suspension/brakes etc as thats essentially the critical bits.. You will get 101 opinions on which manufacturer is the best..
you could (should IMHO) think about bike engined cars too - especially as you are interested mainly as a track tool, and maybe the odd blat on a sunday morning - something any BEC is built for.....
there are a few decent BECs around at the sort of budget you have in mind too........
you could (should IMHO) think about bike engined cars too - especially as you are interested mainly as a track tool, and maybe the odd blat on a sunday morning - something any BEC is built for.....
there are a few decent BECs around at the sort of budget you have in mind too........
i've no connection to any of these - but worth a look... some may not be road registered tho...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1249276.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1232005.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1139829.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1224556.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1249276.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1232005.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1139829.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1224556.htm
Yep, definitely try a few [track days]. You almost certainly will get hooked... but just in case you don't, or in case your requirements change when you try it. I'd also suggest taking the Eunos. Yes, you will be left behind by numpties with more horsepower than skill, but I'd imagine a forgiving front engined car would be less intimidating than a 911 on a first go!
Engine-wise it's strictly a comparative thing. If they're in good order none of these designs will feel slow or nose heavy in the grand scheme of things. Lightweight cars like Sevens and Furys do seem to prefer lighter engines though. A Pinto is usually towards the bottom of people's lists, with the Ford Crossflow, Ford Zetec, Rover K-Series and Toyota 4AGE ahead of it in roughly that order (as well as others).
One point on engines is to think about noise limits if you want to do track days. Carbs sound gorgeous, but the induction noise can reputedly be a problem for strict tracks like Bedford where they have trackside testing as well as static. Some noisier exhausts will give you a problem on the static tests too, even on a four cylinder. Conversely, some times a thumping great TVR V8 will be fine. It's difficult to tell, but worth enquiring.
With regards Sylvas, I'm a big fan. They're all broadly related (chassis-wise) and they were all originally designed by a man called Jeremy Phillips. He's renowned for producing fine handling cars and I don't think there's one that hasn't compared favourably to its peers. A basic timeline goes something like:
Sylva Leader - ugly as hell, but tremendously good value (a good one for £2000!)
...then
Sylva Striker - proper Seven style body, with nifty inboard rocking-arm front suspension, tiny, very light
...then
Sylva Mk4/Phoenix - the first fully-enveloping body version, Striker based chassis, very race orientated
...which became
Sylva Stylus - much more civilised, many with full height screens, hoods etc
...also is the
Fisher Fury - Stylus without a boot hatch basically, same design, virtually indistinguishable
At some point RAW took over the Striker and IIRC someone's taken over the Stylus design too. All very confusing, but basically the ones with the wheels outside are related to the Striker, those with the wheels inside the body are related to the Stylus. Between them they won the kit car championship something like 8 years on the trot in the '90s.
Sevens have their own appeal, but if you've ever heard annecdotes about them hitting a brick wall at higher speeds while the streamlined cars fly by... they're correct. On my first track day with the Caterham it was keeping pace with some real exotica out of the slow corners, but mid way down the longer straights it was being left by hot hatches.
Engine-wise it's strictly a comparative thing. If they're in good order none of these designs will feel slow or nose heavy in the grand scheme of things. Lightweight cars like Sevens and Furys do seem to prefer lighter engines though. A Pinto is usually towards the bottom of people's lists, with the Ford Crossflow, Ford Zetec, Rover K-Series and Toyota 4AGE ahead of it in roughly that order (as well as others).
One point on engines is to think about noise limits if you want to do track days. Carbs sound gorgeous, but the induction noise can reputedly be a problem for strict tracks like Bedford where they have trackside testing as well as static. Some noisier exhausts will give you a problem on the static tests too, even on a four cylinder. Conversely, some times a thumping great TVR V8 will be fine. It's difficult to tell, but worth enquiring.
With regards Sylvas, I'm a big fan. They're all broadly related (chassis-wise) and they were all originally designed by a man called Jeremy Phillips. He's renowned for producing fine handling cars and I don't think there's one that hasn't compared favourably to its peers. A basic timeline goes something like:
Sylva Leader - ugly as hell, but tremendously good value (a good one for £2000!)
...then
Sylva Striker - proper Seven style body, with nifty inboard rocking-arm front suspension, tiny, very light
...then
Sylva Mk4/Phoenix - the first fully-enveloping body version, Striker based chassis, very race orientated
...which became
Sylva Stylus - much more civilised, many with full height screens, hoods etc
...also is the
Fisher Fury - Stylus without a boot hatch basically, same design, virtually indistinguishable
At some point RAW took over the Striker and IIRC someone's taken over the Stylus design too. All very confusing, but basically the ones with the wheels outside are related to the Striker, those with the wheels inside the body are related to the Stylus. Between them they won the kit car championship something like 8 years on the trot in the '90s.
Sevens have their own appeal, but if you've ever heard annecdotes about them hitting a brick wall at higher speeds while the streamlined cars fly by... they're correct. On my first track day with the Caterham it was keeping pace with some real exotica out of the slow corners, but mid way down the longer straights it was being left by hot hatches.
Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 1st October 16:35
OllieWinchester said:
Yeah, good point. We have decided we are probably going to do at least one first, either in the Porsche or in my Eunos.
ETA - Sylva Striker's, in fact Sylva's in general are not something I've heard much about, what makes them so good?
They have a reputation for having great handling, and hence being rather useful track weapons. Not driven one myself, but that's what I've read.ETA - Sylva Striker's, in fact Sylva's in general are not something I've heard much about, what makes them so good?
Edited by OllieWinchester on Thursday 1st October 15:16
They do look rather good though.
OllieWinchester said:
Let me re-phrase it slightly, the Tiger I drove had the worst brakes I've ever come across in my life, no feel, no give, and next to no stopping power
There could have been a number of reasons for that, but they'll all boil down to inappropriate selection of components... either the master cylinder sizes and pedal ratios were wrong, or it was fitted with 'race' compound brake pads that need a lot of heat in them before they start to work. You'll feel a difference with un-servoed brakes (sligtly more pedal effort, much harder pedal), but it shouldn't be dramatic.Having said which, most competition drivers prefer a 'hard' pedal; it makes heeling and toeing easier and gives more confidence that you can spot early signs of brake fade or boiling fluid, so whilst you shouldn't need a huge amount of effort to stop the car, neither should the pedal feel at all soft or squishy, like most modern, servo-braked mainstream production cars do.
OllieWinchester said:
...am I right in thinking a decent 1700 X-flow is a better proposition than the pinto then?
Yes, the Crossflow is an incomparably better engine than the Pinto when you're putting it in something as light as a Seven. But both are both pretty old-fashioned these days, so you're probably right in preferring a Zetec if you want something reliable and undemanding. Old fashioned engines have a lot more character, but you've also got to learn to accommodate their shortcomings - a (genuine) 150+ bhp Crossflow will almost certainly be noisy (to the point where trackday noise limits can be a problem), thirsty, intractable at low revs, leak and blow a bit of oil and need rebuilding every 20K miles. A 150bhp modern 16 valve like a Zetec, K-series or Toyota will just produce the power with no tantrums or temperament (though arguably with no character, either).
OllieWinchester said:
One final question, I understand Robin Hoods are pretty much universally thought of as not really comparable to the rest of the crop. Why is this?
A number of reasons; primarily because their design has always been heavily compromised by cost. They tend to use engine and suspension components selected simply because they're cheap, but that are too heavy or have the the wrong characteristics for the car; their chassis are similarly designed to be cheap and easy for mass fabrication (Robin Hood always chased the 'stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap' ethos of mass production runs - by kit car standards, anyway) and because the cost-cutting led to the kits being being plain badly fabricated in a lot of cases.Then you get into the viscious circle that because it's a poor quality, badly designed kit, it's often being bought by people who don't have the technical knowledge and engineering sensibilities to know any better, and who would have probably turned out a sow's ear even if you gave them finest silk... give them a dead pig to start off with, and you're really onto a loser...
What makes Sylvas so special is that Jeremy Phillips knows how to take the right cheap, basic components and produce a very basic, no-frills design that makes a virtue out of lightness and simplicity. They're traditionally as cheap to build as a Robin Hood, but the design is much cleverer and better thought out. They do look very much like a budget kit car, mind you - all exposed aluminium panels and flimsy, lightweight fibreglass - but they work as well as anything else on the market.
Sam_68 said:
OllieWinchester said:
One final question, I understand Robin Hoods are pretty much universally thought of as not really comparable to the rest of the crop. Why is this?
A number of reasons; primarily because their design has always been heavily compromised by cost. They tend to use engine and suspension components selected simply because they're cheap, but that are too heavy or have the the wrong characteristics for the car; their chassis are similarly designed to be cheap and easy for mass fabrication (Robin Hood always chased the 'stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap' ethos of mass production runs - by kit car standards, anyway) and because the cost-cutting led to the kits being being plain badly fabricated in a lot of cases.Then you get into the viscious circle that because it's a poor quality, badly designed kit, it's often being bought by people who don't have the technical knowledge and engineering sensibilities to know any better, and who would have probably turned out a sow's ear even if you gave them finest silk... give them a dead pig to start off with, and you're really onto a loser...
What makes Sylvas so special is that Jeremy Phillips knows how to take the right cheap, basic components and produce a very basic, no-frills design that makes a virtue out of lightness and simplicity. They're traditionally as cheap to build as a Robin Hood, but the design is much cleverer and better thought out. They do look very much like a budget kit car, mind you - all exposed aluminium panels and flimsy, lightweight fibreglass - but they work as well as anything else on the market.
Nothing wrong with Pinto power. Good honest engines. Easily tuneable even on limited budgets and with a 205 block (These were used by Cosworth) are bulletproof and your local garage will be able to source parts and fix no problem.
The Pinto Championship is still running which says it all really.
Don't be put off, check out Burton Powers website for more information.
A great engine in my view.
The Pinto Championship is still running which says it all really.
Don't be put off, check out Burton Powers website for more information.
A great engine in my view.
just curious -- one of the links is to a Fisher Fury with but 400 Km on the odometer, and it's being sold already... seems a lot of effort into something to keep it that short. Are people generally happy with them? It would be interested to see a poll of all of the kit car owners and a satisfaction survey (kind of like JD Powers or something). I'd like to know which owners are so pleased that they actually keep their cars long-term...
kennyrayandersen said:
just curious -- one of the links is to a Fisher Fury with but 400 Km on the odometer, and it's being sold already... seems a lot of effort into something to keep it that short. Are people generally happy with them? It would be interested to see a poll of all of the kit car owners and a satisfaction survey (kind of like JD Powers or something). I'd like to know which owners are so pleased that they actually keep their cars long-term...
More likely the owner enjoyed the build but isn't so bothered about the car, or maybe his wife isn't keen, or maybe he hasn't got into the social side of the kit car scene. All sorts of possible reasons, don't worry about them, just go and look at the car and buy it if you like it.kennyrayandersen said:
just curious -- one of the links is to a Fisher Fury with but 400 Km on the odometer, and it's being sold already... seems a lot of effort into something to keep it that short. Are people generally happy with them? It would be interested to see a poll of all of the kit car owners and a satisfaction survey (kind of like JD Powers or something). I'd like to know which owners are so pleased that they actually keep their cars long-term...
Some people just seem to be permanently building something, then selling it and starting again. They love building the cars, but not so much the owning and driving side. Which does strike me as weird, but it takes all sorts. Personally I love my car, even though I didn't build it.I suppose its a bit like remote controlled cars, lots of people seem to take great delight in building them, and then sell them almost straight away.
Interesting about the Robin Hoods, I just assumed that seeing as most of these kits are using Sierra running gear that that would be where all the weight is.
Interesting about the Robin Hoods, I just assumed that seeing as most of these kits are using Sierra running gear that that would be where all the weight is.
OllieWinchester said:
I suppose its a bit like remote controlled cars, lots of people seem to take great delight in building them, and then sell them almost straight away.
Interesting about the Robin Hoods, I just assumed that seeing as most of these kits are using Sierra running gear that that would be where all the weight is.
Most kits just use the diff and drive shafts. Robin Hoods used to/still do (?) use the whole rear subframe, which is where a lot of the extra weight is. And the geo set up is for a big heavy sierra, not a light nimble 7. Engines and gearboxes do tend to weigh a good percentage of the finished vehicles weight though.Interesting about the Robin Hoods, I just assumed that seeing as most of these kits are using Sierra running gear that that would be where all the weight is.
Just bought a Robin hood this week - it is in fantastic condition, looks stunning and drives great but it's all about what you want from a car.
For me I want to set it up soft and comfortable and have a good time cruising and making swift progress around some B roads. 0-60 in 7 point something and a lovely note from the Piper cam on the 2 litre Pinto. It has servo brakes and drives fairly normally, all things considered. Keeps me happy, but i can see why others would hate them. Not a performace car by any stretch of the imagination.
For me I want to set it up soft and comfortable and have a good time cruising and making swift progress around some B roads. 0-60 in 7 point something and a lovely note from the Piper cam on the 2 litre Pinto. It has servo brakes and drives fairly normally, all things considered. Keeps me happy, but i can see why others would hate them. Not a performace car by any stretch of the imagination.
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