GTM Libra/Lotus Elise alternatives
Discussion
I presume you are looking for a car with a roof and doors, as opposed to one that is capable of being fitted with a hood and sidescreens.
In that case you are going to have difficulty, because from a maufacturing point of view the economics don't really work. Doors and a roof add a lot of cost to a car, especially at the beginning, and the manufacturer needs to be sure of selling a lot, and at a decent price, to be sure of making money.
So really the car needs to be quite a bit more expensive than similar cars without roof and doors, and in order to justify paying extra the customer will normally be looking for quite a bit more performance than the rivals. Hence Ultima, or else a niche car like the Libra, which, being a glassfibre monocoque, is unlike any of the current other kits.
Would a zcars mini suit?
In that case you are going to have difficulty, because from a maufacturing point of view the economics don't really work. Doors and a roof add a lot of cost to a car, especially at the beginning, and the manufacturer needs to be sure of selling a lot, and at a decent price, to be sure of making money.
So really the car needs to be quite a bit more expensive than similar cars without roof and doors, and in order to justify paying extra the customer will normally be looking for quite a bit more performance than the rivals. Hence Ultima, or else a niche car like the Libra, which, being a glassfibre monocoque, is unlike any of the current other kits.
Would a zcars mini suit?
singlecoil said:
I presume you are looking for a car with a roof and doors, as opposed to one that is capable of being fitted with a hood and sidescreens.
In that case you are going to have difficulty, because from a maufacturing point of view the economics don't really work. Doors and a roof add a lot of cost to a car, especially at the beginning, and the manufacturer needs to be sure of selling a lot, and at a decent price, to be sure of making money.
So really the car needs to be quite a bit more expensive than similar cars without roof and doors, and in order to justify paying extra the customer will normally be looking for quite a bit more performance than the rivals. Hence Ultima, or else a niche car like the Libra, which, being a glassfibre monocoque, is unlike any of the current other kits.
Would a zcars mini suit?
I'm not adverse to a soft top.In that case you are going to have difficulty, because from a maufacturing point of view the economics don't really work. Doors and a roof add a lot of cost to a car, especially at the beginning, and the manufacturer needs to be sure of selling a lot, and at a decent price, to be sure of making money.
So really the car needs to be quite a bit more expensive than similar cars without roof and doors, and in order to justify paying extra the customer will normally be looking for quite a bit more performance than the rivals. Hence Ultima, or else a niche car like the Libra, which, being a glassfibre monocoque, is unlike any of the current other kits.
Would a zcars mini suit?
The things I like about the Elise are the performance combined with the ability to get in it any day, every day not matter the weather and even if I'm wearing a suit.
I think the GTM appears to be able to offer a similar blend.
I guess there is the VX220, but I prefer the looks of the S1 Elise and not really interested in a MR2 MK3 or MK-5. And I've had an MGF.
Sadly I think a Caterham-like would be just a little too hard core. That said wind up windows and no air con are fine my me.
I've currently got a V8 TR7 that is pretty heavily modified. Partly I fancy a change, but want something a bit lighter (~700-850kg or lighter) and something capable of returning substantially better mpg than the 20-23mpg the V8 does.
300bhp/ton said:
I'm not adverse to a soft top.
The things I like about the Elise are the performance combined with the ability to get in it any day, every day not matter the weather and even if I'm wearing a suit.
I think the GTM appears to be able to offer a similar blend.
I guess there is the VX220, but I prefer the looks of the S1 Elise and not really interested in a MR2 MK3 or MK-5. And I've had an MGF.
Sadly I think a Caterham-like would be just a little too hard core. That said wind up windows and no air con are fine my me.
I've currently got a V8 TR7 that is pretty heavily modified. Partly I fancy a change, but want something a bit lighter (~700-850kg or lighter) and something capable of returning substantially better mpg than the 20-23mpg the V8 does.
For a car to have doors it needs to either have a roof, or be constructed in a way that doesn't need the strength imparted by the high sides of a seven style spaceframe. I would have to say that, from the outline of your requirements, that if it's a kit then it will have to be the GTM, and if not then the Elise or VX220.The things I like about the Elise are the performance combined with the ability to get in it any day, every day not matter the weather and even if I'm wearing a suit.
I think the GTM appears to be able to offer a similar blend.
I guess there is the VX220, but I prefer the looks of the S1 Elise and not really interested in a MR2 MK3 or MK-5. And I've had an MGF.
Sadly I think a Caterham-like would be just a little too hard core. That said wind up windows and no air con are fine my me.
I've currently got a V8 TR7 that is pretty heavily modified. Partly I fancy a change, but want something a bit lighter (~700-850kg or lighter) and something capable of returning substantially better mpg than the 20-23mpg the V8 does.
Alternatively, and I say this having been heavily involved in TR7s and the V8s, why not a more modern/efficient/powerful engine in your TR7? If you wanted to keep the BL thing going then there's the T series turbo, or if you didn't mind having something from elsewhere then Zetec/Duratec, Vauxhall red top etc, any of these will give V8 power levels without the inefficiency.
How about the Phantom GTR?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1014393.htm
and a PH review here.
It comes in over the ton though so may not be quite what you are after.
There is also the Aeon Epona, but I am not sure if it has gone into production yet.
You can get a hard top for the Murtaya as well.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1014393.htm
and a PH review here.
It comes in over the ton though so may not be quite what you are after.
There is also the Aeon Epona, but I am not sure if it has gone into production yet.
You can get a hard top for the Murtaya as well.
Edited by Toltec on Sunday 4th October 17:48
Another vote for the Murtaya. They're not cheap, but they're very well thought out and as reliable as an Impreza - you can have air con, cruise control (I think) and all sorts of other toys if you desire and they can be made to go like the proverbial. One of the few kits I'd use daily.
The GTM has more character than the Lotus, but I think it's quite a hard case to argue on quantifiable grounds. Of course the likes of Alfa Romeo and Aston Martin do very nicely despite a similar logic working against them...
The GTM has more character than the Lotus, but I think it's quite a hard case to argue on quantifiable grounds. Of course the likes of Alfa Romeo and Aston Martin do very nicely despite a similar logic working against them...
Chris71 said:
Another vote for the Murtaya. They're not cheap, but they're very well thought out and as reliable as an Impreza - you can have air con, cruise control (I think) and all sorts of other toys if you desire and they can be made to go like the proverbial. One of the few kits I'd use daily.
Thanks. I do like these, but sadly are way too pricey for me. I've had a look about but not seen any for sale 2nd hand, do any exist?I was thinking more like the £6500-9000 price range as you can pick up a nice Lotus for that money, or a GTM or even a VX220.
Toltec said:
How about the Phantom GTR?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1014393.htm
and a PH review here.
It comes in over the ton though so may not be quite what you are after.
There is also the Aeon Epona, but I am not sure if it has gone into production yet.
You can get a hard top for the Murtaya as well.
I do like those Epona soft-tops. Really well proportioned. It'll be interesting to see what they turn out like.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1014393.htm
and a PH review here.
It comes in over the ton though so may not be quite what you are after.
There is also the Aeon Epona, but I am not sure if it has gone into production yet.
You can get a hard top for the Murtaya as well.
I do like those Epona soft-tops. Really well proportioned. It'll be interesting to see what they turn out like.
Edited by Toltec on Sunday 4th October 17:48
300bhp/ton said:
I was thinking more like the £6500-9000 price range as you can pick up a nice Lotus for that money, or a GTM or even a VX220.
That rules a Caterham 21 out on price then.If you are willing to sacrifice some dynamic capability, but get a relatively practical package with great mpg have a look at a Smart Roadster. Having said that if I had not needed the load space and wanted the 50+mpg for commuting and company mileage I would have bought an Elise. The Libra is a great car, however it costs about the same as an Elise and is not as dynamically proficient. How about saving some money and going for a GTM Rossa? Some seem to have the 1.4 Rover engine, which while not exactly powerful should give you some modern fuel injection reliability.
Toltec said:
300bhp/ton said:
I was thinking more like the £6500-9000 price range as you can pick up a nice Lotus for that money, or a GTM or even a VX220.
That rules a Caterham 21 out on price then.If you are willing to sacrifice some dynamic capability, but get a relatively practical package with great mpg have a look at a Smart Roadster. Having said that if I had not needed the load space and wanted the 50+mpg for commuting and company mileage I would have bought an Elise. The Libra is a great car, however it costs about the same as an Elise and is not as dynamically proficient. How about saving some money and going for a GTM Rossa? Some seem to have the 1.4 Rover engine, which while not exactly powerful should give you some modern fuel injection reliability.
There's a Libra with a 1.8 K series with 160hp up for about £9k, the only thing is you can buy a lot of Elise for that money and wondered if its really worth it or not?
I understand these smaller car makers need to make profit and have overheads, but some of the cars are just a tad expensive IMO.
Thanks for your help
300bhp/ton said:
Toltec said:
300bhp/ton said:
I was thinking more like the £6500-9000 price range as you can pick up a nice Lotus for that money, or a GTM or even a VX220.
That rules a Caterham 21 out on price then.If you are willing to sacrifice some dynamic capability, but get a relatively practical package with great mpg have a look at a Smart Roadster. Having said that if I had not needed the load space and wanted the 50+mpg for commuting and company mileage I would have bought an Elise. The Libra is a great car, however it costs about the same as an Elise and is not as dynamically proficient. How about saving some money and going for a GTM Rossa? Some seem to have the 1.4 Rover engine, which while not exactly powerful should give you some modern fuel injection reliability.
There's a Libra with a 1.8 K series with 160hp up for about £9k, the only thing is you can buy a lot of Elise for that money and wondered if its really worth it or not?
Running costs are swings and roundabouts I guess. They should be near identical. It's probably easier to justify home servicing to the buyer of a kit built GTM than it is a nice shiny 'out the box' Lotus (not for any real reason, just peoples' preconceptions). Conversely, if you come across something you can't do, your nearest Lotus dealer is probably a few miles away; as far as I'm aware there aren't any GTM dealers as such.
I think what I need to do is go and drive a Libra and compare. Their factory is only about 2 hours away so will see I can go one weekend.
I do really like the Libra, but my biggest concern is if I can justify spending more on one than a Lotus.
The Phantom GTR looks nice, very sleek. Not sure if it's quite what I'm after. Really want something a little smaller and a little faster. Also the apparent lack of info on them on the web is a little disheartening.
I do really like the Libra, but my biggest concern is if I can justify spending more on one than a Lotus.
The Phantom GTR looks nice, very sleek. Not sure if it's quite what I'm after. Really want something a little smaller and a little faster. Also the apparent lack of info on them on the web is a little disheartening.
300bhp/ton said:
I do really like the Libra, but my biggest concern is if I can justify spending more on one than a Lotus.
To be honest, I'd forget a Libra. If you are thinking that you need to justify it, I think the Libra will lose every time. It's not quite as balanced in the handling stakes as the S1 although a shade faster in a straight line. It'll rattle more, though.I bought one instead of an S1, but then I wanted to build another car and didn't care that it would cost me more than the Elise. I think sometimes people forget, when criticising the cost of kitcars, that we are actually happy to pay money for the privilege of building our cars.....
the only thing that tips the balance in favour of the Libra over the Elise in my opinion is the packaging. The Libra is easier to get in and out of (smaller, swallower sills), has more storage (full boot capable of taking golf clubs, sizable cabin with space behind the seats) and carries a full sized spare tyre up front. Front and rear clams are fully removable (makes working on the engine very easy). Depending on which spec you get, it's essentially a Rover Metro with different parts are easily available. You also get a fully removable roof (although I found storing this in the cabin difficult when the seats were fully racked back).
I'm with Ferg though - the Libra will be potentially more bother than a Elise simply because it's harder to know what will be a problem area (they are hand-built afterall so who knows what has, or hasn't been done correctly). Mine never handled right - partly due to an accident, but new tyres, brakes, suspension... didn't help sort it out. It was the one of the main reasons mine went - it was costing me a fortune trying to run it (and get it "right"). Things that had worked for others, refused to do so for me.
There aren't any dealers about for the Libra though - I used to take mine to Talon Sportscars in Loughbourgh and got first class service there.
Talking of the Talon, what about a 100R? It's a stripped Rover Metro with 1.8VVC engines. They got told off when they took the car to a Lotus track day for lapping significantly quicker than the Elises
I'm with Ferg though - the Libra will be potentially more bother than a Elise simply because it's harder to know what will be a problem area (they are hand-built afterall so who knows what has, or hasn't been done correctly). Mine never handled right - partly due to an accident, but new tyres, brakes, suspension... didn't help sort it out. It was the one of the main reasons mine went - it was costing me a fortune trying to run it (and get it "right"). Things that had worked for others, refused to do so for me.
There aren't any dealers about for the Libra though - I used to take mine to Talon Sportscars in Loughbourgh and got first class service there.
Talking of the Talon, what about a 100R? It's a stripped Rover Metro with 1.8VVC engines. They got told off when they took the car to a Lotus track day for lapping significantly quicker than the Elises
Thanks for all the info
Think I'm maybe just as lost now as before
I'm not really sure what to do.
Currently have a Camaro z28, while I have used it as a daily driver in the past. I want to keep it more for weekend and best use.
I have considered chopping in the z28 and my other motors and just running a new(ish) supercharged Mustang. This is still a possibility, but it's probably stretching my finances a little more than I want.
So to this end I've been looking at some "sensible" daily drivers.
All they really need to be is different yet interesting compared to the Camaro. Ideally looking for physically smaller as this would be good for parking.
4 seats would be good, but not essential as I know some of the types of cars I'm looking at are only 2 seaters.
It also needs to be something I can jump in and drive. My TR7, although I hate to say has got too much hard work, the heavy non PAS steering the bucket seats and the racing harnesses seem to be much more effort these days.
Not really sure if this helps, but some other cars I've been looking at to fulfil the daily driver role:
-Subaru Impreza WRX STI III or IV
I went and looked at one the other week, really loved it, but not sure if its what I should do. The 4 seats and a boot make sense. I also like the fact it was built for a purpose and love the noise the engine makes.
Downsides are it's age (I don't like the bug eye and newer ones). The fact it needs 99 RON fuel and in reality isn't all that economical. Being AWD does mean I could use it in any weather no matter, which last winter did cause a few issues in the Camaro.
-Mini Cooper S
Not driven one, it seats 4 and is meant to be fast and fun. However it's just a bit too mainstream, I love the look but they are everywhere.
-Elise S1
Should be cheap to run and a great drive. non VVC evidently isn't that quick, but hope the driving experience would be worth it. That said I've had 2 MGF's one a VVC and my brother had a modded VVC one. I know they are not an Elise, but I worry that the experience just wouldn't be all that different
-GTM Libra
I like the looks and like the fact its different. Haven't seen any V6 ones or Honda engined ones for sale though which is a shame. My concern would be "should I have bought an Elise?" and with the same engine as an Elise would it really be worth any potential extra hassle.
-Pontiac Fiero
Ok, oddball, very odd ball. But it's mid engined, galvanised chassis and a fibreglass body, so not so different in many ways to quite a few kit cars/small scale production cars.
I admit they are old (1984-88) and most in the UK are auto's. But it should be a nice jump in and use car if not very quick. Biggest plus sides are rarity and cost, would be less than half the price of even the cheapest Elise.
-SMART Roadster
I like these, I like them a lot. But not sure if the gearbox would get on my nerves (really want a manual as the Camaro is an auto). And despite the fact it should handle well I know I'll be hankering for more power sooner or later and just end up thrashing it everywhere.
-Honda ITR DC2
Cheaper to run than an Impreza, but not sure if FWD would annoy me after a while and think I'd prefer a Scooby. That said I do like these.
- any other potential candidate
Sounds a bit of a mess.....
Thanks for everyones help
Think I'm maybe just as lost now as before
I'm not really sure what to do.
Currently have a Camaro z28, while I have used it as a daily driver in the past. I want to keep it more for weekend and best use.
I have considered chopping in the z28 and my other motors and just running a new(ish) supercharged Mustang. This is still a possibility, but it's probably stretching my finances a little more than I want.
So to this end I've been looking at some "sensible" daily drivers.
All they really need to be is different yet interesting compared to the Camaro. Ideally looking for physically smaller as this would be good for parking.
4 seats would be good, but not essential as I know some of the types of cars I'm looking at are only 2 seaters.
It also needs to be something I can jump in and drive. My TR7, although I hate to say has got too much hard work, the heavy non PAS steering the bucket seats and the racing harnesses seem to be much more effort these days.
Not really sure if this helps, but some other cars I've been looking at to fulfil the daily driver role:
-Subaru Impreza WRX STI III or IV
I went and looked at one the other week, really loved it, but not sure if its what I should do. The 4 seats and a boot make sense. I also like the fact it was built for a purpose and love the noise the engine makes.
Downsides are it's age (I don't like the bug eye and newer ones). The fact it needs 99 RON fuel and in reality isn't all that economical. Being AWD does mean I could use it in any weather no matter, which last winter did cause a few issues in the Camaro.
-Mini Cooper S
Not driven one, it seats 4 and is meant to be fast and fun. However it's just a bit too mainstream, I love the look but they are everywhere.
-Elise S1
Should be cheap to run and a great drive. non VVC evidently isn't that quick, but hope the driving experience would be worth it. That said I've had 2 MGF's one a VVC and my brother had a modded VVC one. I know they are not an Elise, but I worry that the experience just wouldn't be all that different
-GTM Libra
I like the looks and like the fact its different. Haven't seen any V6 ones or Honda engined ones for sale though which is a shame. My concern would be "should I have bought an Elise?" and with the same engine as an Elise would it really be worth any potential extra hassle.
-Pontiac Fiero
Ok, oddball, very odd ball. But it's mid engined, galvanised chassis and a fibreglass body, so not so different in many ways to quite a few kit cars/small scale production cars.
I admit they are old (1984-88) and most in the UK are auto's. But it should be a nice jump in and use car if not very quick. Biggest plus sides are rarity and cost, would be less than half the price of even the cheapest Elise.
-SMART Roadster
I like these, I like them a lot. But not sure if the gearbox would get on my nerves (really want a manual as the Camaro is an auto). And despite the fact it should handle well I know I'll be hankering for more power sooner or later and just end up thrashing it everywhere.
-Honda ITR DC2
Cheaper to run than an Impreza, but not sure if FWD would annoy me after a while and think I'd prefer a Scooby. That said I do like these.
- any other potential candidate
Sounds a bit of a mess.....
Thanks for everyones help
Sounds like you need to start narrowing things down, to be honest. The difference between a Scooby and a Libra is pronounced. Whilst the GTM is a very good quality kit in terms of creature comforts, it is still a kit and so it will rattle like hell, is noisy and if something goes wrong you'll be doing at least some of the work finding out what's wrong yourself. The Elise is probably somewhere in between, in that it is a production car but a very 'basic' plasticky one.
I went through a similar decision earlier this year. I wanted an uncompromised 'sports car', which meant I wasn't looking at anything like a Scooby, but the Elise, VX, Libra, MX-5, MGF and MR2 roadster all got a look-in. In the end I bought a Spyder, it's not a sensible car by any stretch of the imagination but it ticked enough boxes and is very noticeable on the road. You get a lot of comments and questions about it, and it costs no more than something very run-of-the-mill. Where you pay for this is in the quirks. Things will drop off, need adjusting, fail before they should, you'll spill petrol on your shoes when you fill it up, etc etc. If the extra comfort and 'normality' of a production car are not factors then by all means buy a Libra, but if you're not interested in the uniqueness aspect there is no reason to buy one over an Elise.
I went through a similar decision earlier this year. I wanted an uncompromised 'sports car', which meant I wasn't looking at anything like a Scooby, but the Elise, VX, Libra, MX-5, MGF and MR2 roadster all got a look-in. In the end I bought a Spyder, it's not a sensible car by any stretch of the imagination but it ticked enough boxes and is very noticeable on the road. You get a lot of comments and questions about it, and it costs no more than something very run-of-the-mill. Where you pay for this is in the quirks. Things will drop off, need adjusting, fail before they should, you'll spill petrol on your shoes when you fill it up, etc etc. If the extra comfort and 'normality' of a production car are not factors then by all means buy a Libra, but if you're not interested in the uniqueness aspect there is no reason to buy one over an Elise.
Edited by bogwoppit on Tuesday 6th October 13:48
...I can totally understand the value of looking at disperate options. Different cars have different attributes - to be honest if you were looking at two very similar cars you could just adopt a Top Trumps approach and go for the fastest, cheapest or best value.
The problem is that no car does it all. Therefore sometimes you get one that has the load space, but isn't so overtly sporting, against one which is more exciting, but will restrict you to carry everything in soft bags because the boot is non-existent. Neither is perfect - is a case of choosing which area you compromise in.
Out of the above I'd go for the DC2 if you can live with the noise (probably no louder than some of the others) and the somewhat uncompromising Recarro seats. The Integras are often cited as the zenith of FWD handling and, as standard, the Impreza behaves much like it was a well setup FWD car too. The DC2 seems to have the ideal balance of practicality, more or less addequate fuel economy and every day dependability. If I didn't do so many motorway miles in the daily driver I'd swap it for one in a heartbeat.
The problem is that no car does it all. Therefore sometimes you get one that has the load space, but isn't so overtly sporting, against one which is more exciting, but will restrict you to carry everything in soft bags because the boot is non-existent. Neither is perfect - is a case of choosing which area you compromise in.
Out of the above I'd go for the DC2 if you can live with the noise (probably no louder than some of the others) and the somewhat uncompromising Recarro seats. The Integras are often cited as the zenith of FWD handling and, as standard, the Impreza behaves much like it was a well setup FWD car too. The DC2 seems to have the ideal balance of practicality, more or less addequate fuel economy and every day dependability. If I didn't do so many motorway miles in the daily driver I'd swap it for one in a heartbeat.
Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 6th October 16:00
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