Good old Ken!

[Balmoral Green]

I shouldn't think he's very popular on here, but he knows what the crack is and appears to have a good business team beside him.

[Stu R]

I'll assume you mean Clarke and not Livingstone

[unrepentant]

I like Ken and if it hadn't been for his stance on the EU he would have been leader and maybe even PM by now. He talks a lot of sense and is far more of an "everyman" than most politicians. But Europe is a huge millstone for him because he is simply out of step with his party over it.

Even this week at conference he couldn't resist. Cameron and his colleagues has been campaigning like crazy to get a vote on the Lisbon treaty. If there were to be one the tories would be squarely behind a NO vote and yet Ken couldn't resist saying on camera that he hadn't decided which side to campaign on! He later backtracked but this is his form and has been for years and unfortunately it has made him totally unsuitable to lead.

[Legend83]

unrepentant said:

I like Ken and if it hadn't been for his stance on the EU he would have been leader and maybe even PM by now. He talks a lot of sense and is far more of an "everyman" than most politicians. But Europe is a huge millstone for him because he is simply out of step with his party over it.

Even this week at conference he couldn't resist. Cameron and his colleagues has been campaigning like crazy to get a vote on the Lisbon treaty. If there were to be one the tories would be squarely behind a NO vote and yet Ken couldn't resist saying on camera that he hadn't decided which side to campaign on! He later backtracked but this is his form and has been for years and unfortunately it has made him totally unsuitable to lead.

Whether I agree with his stance or not, at least the man sticks to his principles and does not bow down to populist pressure.

[unrepentant]

Legend83 said:

unrepentant said:

I like Ken and if it hadn't been for his stance on the EU he would have been leader and maybe even PM by now. He talks a lot of sense and is far more of an "everyman" than most politicians. But Europe is a huge millstone for him because he is simply out of step with his party over it.

Even this week at conference he couldn't resist. Cameron and his colleagues has been campaigning like crazy to get a vote on the Lisbon treaty. If there were to be one the tories would be squarely behind a NO vote and yet Ken couldn't resist saying on camera that he hadn't decided which side to campaign on! He later backtracked but this is his form and has been for years and unfortunately it has made him totally unsuitable to lead.

Whether I agree with his stance or not, at least the man sticks to his principles and does not bow down to populist pressure.

I don't disagree with you. Like I said, I think he's a good guy. But his stance of the EU is incompatible with that of his party on what is a big issue for the party.

[nonegreen]

unrepentant said:

Legend83 said:

unrepentant said:

I like Ken and if it hadn't been for his stance on the EU he would have been leader and maybe even PM by now. He talks a lot of sense and is far more of an "everyman" than most politicians. But Europe is a huge millstone for him because he is simply out of step with his party over it.

Even this week at conference he couldn't resist. Cameron and his colleagues has been campaigning like crazy to get a vote on the Lisbon treaty. If there were to be one the tories would be squarely behind a NO vote and yet Ken couldn't resist saying on camera that he hadn't decided which side to campaign on! He later backtracked but this is his form and has been for years and unfortunately it has made him totally unsuitable to lead.

Whether I agree with his stance or not, at least the man sticks to his principles and does not bow down to populist pressure.

I don't disagree with you. Like I said, I think he's a good guy. But his stance of the EU is incompatible with that of his party on what is a big issue for the party.

Why is his stance on europe an issue with his party? It was the tories that took us into europe. Ken is on message its the euroskeptics in the party that are out of step. The only anti europe party of any note is UKIP. you must vote for them if you want out.

[unrepentant]

nonegreen said:

Why is his stance on europe an issue with his party? It was the tories that took us into europe. Ken is on message its the euroskeptics in the party that are out of step. The only anti europe party of any note is UKIP. you must vote for them if you want out.

I disagree. Sure if you want out of Europe alltogether then UKIP is the only option. The Tories both in leadership and membership (which is far more eurosceptic than the leadership) are against Lisbon and further integration / constitution etc.. Ken Clarke is for it and is therefore out of step with both the leadership and membership of his party.

As far as ancient history is concerned I think you will find that most tories old enough to have campaigned for EEC membership under Heath feel betrayed by what they ended up with. My mother was a Tory GLC councillor at the time and believes that the grocer conned everyone into believing that they were campaigning for a common market when all along Heath was in favour of a federal Europe and knew that was what we would end up with. I would not be surprised if a poll of Concervative party members showed a majority in favour of leavig the EU.

[gary11]

Legend83 said:

unrepentant said:

I like Ken and if it hadn't been for his stance on the EU he would have been leader and maybe even PM by now. He talks a lot of sense and is far more of an "everyman" than most politicians. But Europe is a huge millstone for him because he is simply out of step with his party over it.

Even this week at conference he couldn't resist. Cameron and his colleagues has been campaigning like crazy to get a vote on the Lisbon treaty. If there were to be one the tories would be squarely behind a NO vote and yet Ken couldn't resist saying on camera that he hadn't decided which side to campaign on! He later backtracked but this is his form and has been for years and unfortunately it has made him totally unsuitable to lead.

Whether I agree with his stance or not, at least the man sticks to his principles and does not bow down to populist pressure.

Just beacause some dont like the cut of his jib he still shows his hand,which is more than the others do,saying one thing and doing the opposite.
Brown is the all time snake IMO and as for that laughing prick Blair now lining himself up for president of europe job he has always wanted .......eeeew and that missus of his you just couldnt could you!
Shame his stooges wont be in office WHEN not if he gets the job.

[Balmoral Green]

unrepentant said:

nonegreen said:

Why is his stance on europe an issue with his party? It was the tories that took us into europe. Ken is on message its the euroskeptics in the party that are out of step. The only anti europe party of any note is UKIP. you must vote for them if you want out.

I disagree. Sure if you want out of Europe alltogether then UKIP is the only option. The Tories both in leadership and membership (which is far more eurosceptic than the leadership) are against Lisbon and further integration / constitution etc.. Ken Clarke is for it and is therefore out of step with both the leadership and membership of his party.

As far as ancient history is concerned I think you will find that most tories old enough to have campaigned for EEC membership under Heath feel betrayed by what they ended up with. My mother was a Tory GLC councillor at the time and believes that the grocer conned everyone into believing that they were campaigning for a common market when all along Heath was in favour of a federal Europe and knew that was what we would end up with. I would not be surprised if a poll of Concervative party members showed a majority in favour of leavig the EU.

Whilst I agree that there are no shortage of tories who fit the xenophobic anti-European image, nonners is quite right when he says that Ken is 'on message', and he is certainly not for Lisbon. Just take a look at what the Conservative party website says about its stance on Europe, Ken is entirely consistent with that. It is the Euro sceptics who are 'off message'.

There are many, many tories who are generally pro-Europe (although not in favour of Lisbon), fairly liberal, and sort of centre right and fit into the bottom right area of the political compass (like me). But there are also plenty of rabid xenophobic ultra right wing mega authoritarian tories too, who fit into the very top right corner of the political compass (like far too many PH'ers? ).

Best thing to do is agree to differ

[unrepentant]

Balmoral Green said:

There are many, many tories who are generally pro-Europe (although not in favour of Lisbon), fairly liberal, and sort of centre right and fit into the bottom right area of the political compass (like me). But there are also plenty of rabid xenophobic ultra right wing mega authoritarian tories too, who fit into the very top right corner of the political compass (like far too many PH'ers? ).

I'd be prepared to bet that if you polled the conservative membership (membership, not supporters or voters) and asked if they wanted a referendum on whether or not to stay in the EU a majority would vote yes.

[hidetheelephants]

Balmoral Green said:

unrepentant said:

nonegreen said:

stuff

stuff

Whilst I agree that there are no shortage of tories who fit the xenophobic anti-European image, nonners is quite right when he says that Ken is 'on message', and he is certainly not for Lisbon. Just take a look at what the Conservative party website says about its stance on Europe, Ken is entirely consistent with that. It is the Euro sceptics who are 'off message'.

There are many, many tories who are generally pro-Europe (although not in favour of Lisbon), fairly liberal, and sort of centre right and fit into the bottom right area of the political compass (like me). But there are also plenty of rabid xenophobic ultra right wing mega authoritarian tories too, who fit into the very top right corner of the political compass (like far too many PH'ers? ).

Best thing to do is agree to differ

Are these not what the Maggon used to refer to as 'wets'? I find that I'm pretty much of this opinion too these days; mildly libertarian, or conservative with a small 'c' as someone once said...

[unrepentant]

Balmoral Green said:

nonners is quite right when he says that Ken is 'on message', and he is certainly not for Lisbon. Just take a look at what the Conservative party website says about its stance on Europe, Ken is entirely consistent with that. It is the Euro sceptics who are 'off message'.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/ken-clarke-moves-to-rule-out-support-for-lisbon-treaty-yes-vote-in-conservative-cabinet-1.924264


I have no doubt whatsoever that KC is absolutely in favour of the Lisbon treaty.

This is what I referred to in my first post;

"Mr Clarke exposed divisions by apparently suggesting that he would consider taking part in a Yes campaign if a referendum were to be held.

Asked what role he might play in any campaign and whether fighting for the treaty would be compatible with a Government post, Mr Clarke told a conference fringe: "I will wait to see if we have a referendum and I will see if either side invites me."

(Can't get the link to work.)