Injector fitting ?

[TVR Beaver]

Okay.. for tonights entertainment I have to fit the new red top injectors to the Griff... I spent last night fitting the new K&N filter that took about 2 hours due to trimming / packing and sealing the box on... as it had gaps and was not clamping the filtere due to non-flat parts etc (what a job!!)
Anyway.. I then removed the the Induction top end and got the the old injectors.. after a lot of pulling and tugging I managed to get them out but by this time it was 1AM.. so tonight, I have to fit the new red top's....
Can anyone offer the best way to do this?.. do you put the injectors in the manifould and fit the pipe to the tops... or the injectors to the pipe and then push into the manifold.. or a bit of both?..
judging on how hard it was to remove I'm sure I've got a fight on my hands so any info / advice would be of use!!... Cheers

[Johno]

touch of vaseline onto O rings and go individually, then add rail works easiest for me.

It's a bugger either way as they'll be a nice snug fit. Have a magnet handy for when you drop a clip and make sure they are fully into the rail.

Edited by Johno on Friday 9th October 12:06

[TVR Beaver]

Mmmm.. Would have thought you'd be putting a lot of pressure on the plastic tops that way.. did think of having them in the pipe??... anyway.. will see... It would be a lot easier if it wasn't a solid U and the pipe had a flexable bit in the middle... Wonder if anyone has doen this?.. Just don't want to snap one off... I'm sure you could do this if you push too hard!!??

[Johno]

In fairness I've done it both ways, last time individually and then fit the rail.

If you fit them into the rail first then leave the clips off until you're happy with the fit and then make sure they are fully seated into the rail and then apply clips (keep magnet nearby for picking them up when you drop them)

[TVR Beaver]

Will do.. will try the way you say if you think it's easiest... Cheers...

Edited by TVR Beaver on Friday 9th October 11:08

[spend]

Give the manifold & rail a really good clean first, solvent and Q-tip detail. If there are any sharp bits / gouges don't be afraid to use a bit of sandpaper.

Warm some vaseline in a container in the microwave, then coat the o-rings in it before fitting.

Also check the legs on the fuel rail have not got bent too much by sitting it on the manifold before you start, its a PITA to try and straighten it out half way into the fitment.

I just place the injectors in the manifold and locate the rail, then gradually press it all together, just wiggling ones that feel a bit tight rather than brute force.

Being five thumbed and less patient as I get older I put a bit of that garden twine stuff (plastic wire?) on each clip and just remove it before pushing fully home (bloody things )

[TVR Beaver]

Cheers Spend... Another vote for injectorts in the manifold.. so this is what I'll do... was going to use petrolium based vasoline... but warming it is a good idea... will help to softern the 'O' rings also... The rail looks fine so in I go.... Tonight anyway.... do you think splitting it into 2 parts with a flexi is a good idea or not?? would make life a lot easier??

[spend]

Hahahaha....

If you want to mod cut in 2 halves tee at the back, tee at the front, feed one end and put the pressure regulator at the other end. Seems like all performance systems do it that way, and IMHO balances the pressure drops an awful lot better..

It's not really that hard to get on, but 'breaking' the box shape into 2 halves will loose the fixing rigidity of the fuel rail - you would need stiffer stronger legs to clamp it on each side separately I think.

[TVR Beaver]

Just had a chat with Mark Adams on the setting up of the car at the end of the month and mentioned the topic... he uses the injectors in the pipe approach ........ Fit one side .. then the other....
OK.. will play tonight.. Don't matter so long as it all goes back and don't leak... . Thanks All for your input...

[GreenV8S]

I follow Spend's approach, but fit the injectors to the fuel rail first. Getting the sealing face of the fuel rail absolutely clean is critical since the slightest spec of dirt could compromise the seal and cause a fuel leak. Sealing the injector to the manifold is far less important in comparison so let that be the one you struggle with.

Note that the height of the injector is determined by the clip into the fuel rail and this can engage on the injector in two positions - make sure you get the right one.

[TVR Beaver]

Interesting... and which one is the right one?.. any thoughts... The top or bottom??... May be I can work this out with the old injector.... Cheers...

[TVR Beaver]

For anyone how needs to know.. the clips go in the top slot.. It's obvious when you do the job ... the lower slot is actualy 2 flats and not a complete ring but would hold the injectors out of the manifiould if you used this...
What I didn't know is that the injectors don't go all the way into the manifold holes... they can push through if fully in and become loose again as the 'O' ring starts to go out the bottom of the injector hole ... It's the rail that holds them mid way in the manifold bores so they seal... too far down and they go past the bore and the 'O' ring would be doing nothing inside the manilfold... Too far out and they would not seal due to being out of the holes at the top....
.
I put one side in the pipework and fitted them in one go... Then fitted the other side individualy... The studs are at 90 deg that hold the pipe where as the injectors are at say 45 deg... it's getting past this that's a pain.. otherwise fitting was much easier than removal for some reason... may be they stick in after a time?...

Anyway.. job done... just hope they work!!... Cheers

[spend]

TVR Beaver said:

What I didn't know is that the injectors don't go all the way into the manifold holes... they can push through if fully in and become loose again as the 'O' ring starts to go out the bottom of the injector hole ...

I think that depends on how much porting has been done on your manifold. Originally there is a lot of material around the base of the injector hole with a step so that the injector cannot be pushed through. I must admit I do completely remove that area, but I am aware of the consequences when fitting the injectors

I'm still not convinced you can fit those Bosch injectors without the nose poking into the air stream in the manifold though. I tried shimming a fuel rail to keep the injector higher in the port, but as you noted it screws up the 45deg - 90deg fixing geometry. It needed @ 9mm raise at the feet so the nose was not protruding into the port of the manifold, then of course it was impossible to fit the other bank. I trial assemblied it on the bench using some Bosch yellow injectors I had around and just couldn't see a way to keep the injectors set high enough so as not to stick out in the port.

[GreenV8S]

spend said:

I'm still not convinced you can fit those Bosch injectors without the nose poking into the air stream in the manifold though.

How bad is the obstruction? If it's only a few mm it might not matter in the scheme of things. The red Bosch injectors MA supplied are the same dimensions as the original Lucas ones, so I guess these are different ones you're looking at.

[spend]

GreenV8S said:

spend said:

I'm still not convinced you can fit those Bosch injectors without the nose poking into the air stream in the manifold though.

How bad is the obstruction? If it's only a few mm it might not matter in the scheme of things. The red Bosch injectors MA supplied are the same dimensions as the original Lucas ones, so I guess these are different ones you're looking at.

IIRC Fordy posted the comparative pictures a while ago. the 'extra' nose is @8-10mm IIRC

[TVR Beaver]

No.. they are MA Bosch units I'm fitting .. into a V8D manifold.. and are a bit longer.. but not as bad as pushing them fully home and looking up inside.. as I sauy.. they get drawn back about 6mm or so.... But shim the base and they will pop out of the top anything over about 6mm I would have thought?... It's a fine line... will give it a squirt of easy start once done.. just to make sure I don't have any leaks... no sure the protrusion into the bore will cause any issue... MA said this is normal?...

[spend]

TVR Beaver said:

No.. they are MA Bosch units I'm fitting .. into a V8D manifold.. and are a bit longer.. but not as bad as pushing them fully home and looking up inside.. as I sauy.. they get drawn back about 6mm or so.... But shim the base and they will pop out of the top anything over about 6mm I would have thought?... It's a fine line... will give it a squirt of easy start once done.. just to make sure I don't have any leaks... no sure the protrusion into the bore will cause any issue... MA said this is normal?...

Mike Virgo & Pasco weren't happy bunnies losing when they lost quite a few ponies immediately after 'upgrading'..

Supposedly better spray pattern, certainly should flow enough for those 2 motors (chasing elusive consistent 350bhp results), so the only deduction I could make was that they were impinging on the flow in the port? After close investigation it was discovered that they did in fact look like the tip of your little finger sticking into the port whereas the Lucas ones are completely recessed. As I mentioned above I can't see how you can lift them in the seat (so that they don't protrude down into the airflow) due to the angles of the fuel rail - manifold?

If you don't have an aggressively ported manifold and there is still that large hump behind the injector it probably doesn't matter. But all the manifolds I've seen that make good numbers have had that area seriously worked on - thats when you see the kind of crossbow outline instead of just a round hole It is my assumption, possibly faulty.., that without that level of tuning to the manifolds there would be little reason to consider uprated injectors?

[TVR Beaver]

For sure I have the cross bow... but not that important on chasing ponies...... Just a better system...
But you have me thinking now... Should I be able to put red tops into a ported manifold using the exiting fuel pipe and get the correct location.. or do you have to mess about a bit to get the injectors seated???????.. the 'O' rings are not out the top but are they out the bottom??
I've not had the manifould off this time so not had the luxury of seeing up to see if the 'O' rings are correct or not?...
Using the standard set up... do you think they will be seated okay?.. I assume the V8D work will be done to take any injectors.. .obviously Lucas and would suggest red tops also?... I hope??

[TVR Beaver]

think this shows what you mean however...

[spend]

Yes that shows it pretty well, and you also see the problem with the o-ring showing... As you increase the port size in the upper area you take away even more ally which increases the problem. I'd guess you could take nearly another 5mm out of the top of your manifold (and heads) as well as increase the width a fair bit more (I dont really like to take much off the bottom as you cant really complement the change in the heads). It all seems to get fairly marginal if you are trying to max the manifolds - and a lot of it on the outer ports is opening the entrance so that you can get in to enlarge & clean up the internals...

Oh BTW, that nose bit has come away on a couple I inherited make sure you 'handle with care' looks like they are only stuck on? Mike J also said he'd seen it with them on Fords.