It could have been nasty
Discussion
Fed up with a faceful of Tesco’s recycled multigrade from a mazda friendee bongo (who the hell thinks up these awful names) I gunned it from the roundabout this morning and almost came a cropper.
Road was dry but some friendly a**ewipe in a hgv or tractor had decided to drop a big dollop of lovely clayey soil onto the road. I straddled the big lump - steady - but obviously caught some of the residue cos I was soon heading for the kerb. The car then snapped back towards the central armco. It then regained traction and phew the danger was gone. I would have been accelerating in 3rd from lowish revs.
I’d like to think my skill managed to save the day but that's wishful thinking. I instinctively eased off the power though I do remember telling myself to let the car do its thing and not to be brutal with any inputs. But buoy I thought I'd had it.
It was about 15 minutes later that I started to shake a bit.
(Reminder to self, there are 350 horses under right foot).
Road was dry but some friendly a**ewipe in a hgv or tractor had decided to drop a big dollop of lovely clayey soil onto the road. I straddled the big lump - steady - but obviously caught some of the residue cos I was soon heading for the kerb. The car then snapped back towards the central armco. It then regained traction and phew the danger was gone. I would have been accelerating in 3rd from lowish revs.
I’d like to think my skill managed to save the day but that's wishful thinking. I instinctively eased off the power though I do remember telling myself to let the car do its thing and not to be brutal with any inputs. But buoy I thought I'd had it.
It was about 15 minutes later that I started to shake a bit.
(Reminder to self, there are 350 horses under right foot).
Almost the same happened to me. Came off of a field (where i had been parked, Clayey soil. Knowing I had a small layer of mud on the tyres I gently accelerated up a slip road. Got to about 200 feet to the dual carriageway and realized I wasn't really going fast enough(about 35mph). Gently squeezed the throttle and got up to about 40 and.....SNAP! Rear end came round and pointed me almost 90 degrees toward dual carriageway. Then BOSCH! round it came again and headed me toward a nice big fence. Just feet away from impending disaster and it straightened up. Missus in tears. Horrible. Got away lightly I think. The thing that pissed me off the most was that the useless TC didn't even notice. I know what you mean about being shaken. Not a pleasant experience.
I'm sure Breaker will agree, you only really feel how heavy and ungainly these cars are when you've lost control of them. Big wollowy arse end, barely any grip. I really felt the cars 13 odd feet and nearly two tonnes. Just try to do what everyone says and steer into it all. I did the same as Breaker and came off the throttle. NO brakes. Prelude to atomisation that is. Just had to ride it out. I know for a fact the Rocklanders barely EVER take theirs out in the wet and I can see why.
Mines dry road use only aswell, however very early Saturday morning had been wet over night had to take the car out, roads were dry with the odd damp patch, however coming down a slip road to join a dual carriageway in 3rd gear part of it is covered by trees and was still a bit wet, slight amount of right foot to join the motorway the back end went for all but a second, certainly woke me up properly at 7.30am lol
An all too common story during this seasson, my previous cars included a 400 bhp 200sx and an S2000. Never had any problem with traction in the wet or winter with the previous two RWD cars, so I dont expect to have any in the Monaro.
Owners on there respective forums would lead you to believe that both were leathal in anything but dry conditions too
Be careful out there chaps over this seasonal transition
Owners on there respective forums would lead you to believe that both were leathal in anything but dry conditions too
Be careful out there chaps over this seasonal transition
Have been driving the holdens for almost half my life now... It is amazing though the differences between them, and their behaviours. The monaro is the best at handling, between the commodore and the ute.
Traction control can be an enemy here big time, because it hides the real behaviour of the car, and it also plants power very unevenly. When I get into the car, first thing I do is switch off the traction control. Only advice I can offer is that if you want to learn how it handles is turn off the traction control, but do it in a safe manner until you get use to not having it, because it can seriously bite you as well.
Basically, what you have to be careful of, is that as soon as that back starts to give, (you get the feel for it trust me, give it a go on an open road, with no traffic and plenty of room). What I would do straight away is pull your foot straight off the accelerator, and let the steering wheel have it's own, give it a bit of pressure, but not very much. What you will find is the car straightens up and get back to situation normal, then you can recover from there. If you yank on the wheel, I find you give the suspension a chance to unbalance the car, and that changes the dynamics of it. Worse thing, in my opinion is to try and fight it. You want the car stable first before you get it to change direction. Another thing is only plant your foot on the brake if you are going in a straight line, otherwise the pure momentum will take you in your initial direction, and not the direction you are pointing your front wheels.
Traction control can be an enemy here big time, because it hides the real behaviour of the car, and it also plants power very unevenly. When I get into the car, first thing I do is switch off the traction control. Only advice I can offer is that if you want to learn how it handles is turn off the traction control, but do it in a safe manner until you get use to not having it, because it can seriously bite you as well.
Basically, what you have to be careful of, is that as soon as that back starts to give, (you get the feel for it trust me, give it a go on an open road, with no traffic and plenty of room). What I would do straight away is pull your foot straight off the accelerator, and let the steering wheel have it's own, give it a bit of pressure, but not very much. What you will find is the car straightens up and get back to situation normal, then you can recover from there. If you yank on the wheel, I find you give the suspension a chance to unbalance the car, and that changes the dynamics of it. Worse thing, in my opinion is to try and fight it. You want the car stable first before you get it to change direction. Another thing is only plant your foot on the brake if you are going in a straight line, otherwise the pure momentum will take you in your initial direction, and not the direction you are pointing your front wheels.
Raggyman. When you say it plants the power unevenly. I think i have had a few experiences of that. I have always driven with the traction control on after a scare i had wen i first picked it up (in january) and had the back step out on the ice. the TC beeped, had the warning triangle come up on the dash and i just assumed it was working and helped me out.
Any way going back to the subject. when it is dry and the road is straight and it is safe to do so I have come out of the corner and floored it. the speed builds and the world goes blury and occaisionally I get a wobble from the rear. is that the TC distributing the power unevenley? it's prob around the 4-5000 rpm mark.
It doesn't do it every time I give it the beans, but when it does you i always think it's the road having an un-noticed camber or a bit of moisture or oil. guess not.
Anyone else get this and is it the TC??????
Any way going back to the subject. when it is dry and the road is straight and it is safe to do so I have come out of the corner and floored it. the speed builds and the world goes blury and occaisionally I get a wobble from the rear. is that the TC distributing the power unevenley? it's prob around the 4-5000 rpm mark.
It doesn't do it every time I give it the beans, but when it does you i always think it's the road having an un-noticed camber or a bit of moisture or oil. guess not.
Anyone else get this and is it the TC??????
The TC basically just cuts the throttle, and then pushes it back. Not sure about your model of monaro, but mine gives feedback through the accelerator. Basically it kicks back, so you know that you have lost traction. Very handy...
Yeah, TC is good on ice and dirt, but still like the idea of knowing what the car is doing. Sometimes what I have happen is that you can be driving along, and then hit a bit of rough road, where the wheels are pretty close to coming off the ground, and you loose the traction, at which point the traction control kicks in, and when you finally get traction back the engine has reved up again. What happens I tend to find is that you get a see-saw affect of no-traction, traction, no traction, traction, as when it pulls it down to get traction it then shoots up, causing loss of traction. It is pretty brutal, and not as smooth as you think it should be.
Ah, definitely, I drove my GTS around with traction control on for a few months to start off with. Just because I wasn't quiet sure how the car was handling, compared to the commodore I was driving around. Found the monaro, a bit sharper and much better to handle in the rear than the commodore, but in saying that, you could give it more, but when it gave back it gave back with interest. Definitely could push it more that is for sure.
Traction control is good, don't get me wrong, it has it's time and place, but I definitely feel alot safer now having it off, as you get much better feedback as to what is going on. Especially if in yours you don't get the throttle pedal feedback. I drive with it off, cause to me, I know now the feeling of when it is about to give, so back it off a bit, but pushing it to the limit. Mainly like it because if the back wheels are doing that, the front wheels are also going to be close to loosing traction as well, (of course depending how flat to the floor your pedal is).
Yeah, TC is good on ice and dirt, but still like the idea of knowing what the car is doing. Sometimes what I have happen is that you can be driving along, and then hit a bit of rough road, where the wheels are pretty close to coming off the ground, and you loose the traction, at which point the traction control kicks in, and when you finally get traction back the engine has reved up again. What happens I tend to find is that you get a see-saw affect of no-traction, traction, no traction, traction, as when it pulls it down to get traction it then shoots up, causing loss of traction. It is pretty brutal, and not as smooth as you think it should be.
Ah, definitely, I drove my GTS around with traction control on for a few months to start off with. Just because I wasn't quiet sure how the car was handling, compared to the commodore I was driving around. Found the monaro, a bit sharper and much better to handle in the rear than the commodore, but in saying that, you could give it more, but when it gave back it gave back with interest. Definitely could push it more that is for sure.
Traction control is good, don't get me wrong, it has it's time and place, but I definitely feel alot safer now having it off, as you get much better feedback as to what is going on. Especially if in yours you don't get the throttle pedal feedback. I drive with it off, cause to me, I know now the feeling of when it is about to give, so back it off a bit, but pushing it to the limit. Mainly like it because if the back wheels are doing that, the front wheels are also going to be close to loosing traction as well, (of course depending how flat to the floor your pedal is).
I must be one of the few who goes out to play when it rains then lol......I think the R8 has a ton more grip tho from what im reading here ?? still have to be massively gentle with the throttle and TC turned off tho, by god its fun when your in the mood to be a hooligan
Glad it worked out ok for you mate, nothing worse than being taken by surprise eh !!
Glad it worked out ok for you mate, nothing worse than being taken by surprise eh !!
IMHO you will get to know when and how to get the back end stepping out (safely)- and as raggyman says just ease off and let the steering wheel straighten on its own before turning in.
My train of thought is that it is better to know how to correct the issue than not experiencing it at all - cos at some stage it will catch you out - be prepared!
My train of thought is that it is better to know how to correct the issue than not experiencing it at all - cos at some stage it will catch you out - be prepared!
Don't drive in the wet, what a bunch of girls. I poke the tail of mine out on the same two roundabouts for practice each morning. The wetter the better for handling practice as it all happens at lower speed.
Both Monaro and VXR8 are long wheelbase and therefore highly stable when you break traction.Only tip is that you need to respect the amount of torque and use the throttle as an analogue device in bends.
Bennno
Both Monaro and VXR8 are long wheelbase and therefore highly stable when you break traction.Only tip is that you need to respect the amount of torque and use the throttle as an analogue device in bends.
Bennno
TC on the monaro is basically cutting the throttle directly at the butteryfly so on cable cars you can feel it pull through the pedal. It's not very effective though and crude at best.
The VXR8 has a much better integrated system that will cut fuel to cylinders in much the same way as the rpm cut out. This can be controlled more accurately by the ECU so isn't as violent but can still be a bit "up and down" if you just plant your right foot so the ECU is fighting the drivers input.
Just remember TC only helps in the one specific situation of the rear wheels letting go due to to much power.
The VXR8 also has SCS which will also use the brakes, steering input, gyro sensors and individual wheel speeds to calculate and if required attempt correction of the cars attitude if it steps out from it's defined boundaries. This helps is considerably more scanarios than TC alone.
One thing I would say that in my experience is that you should not just jump off the throttle if the back end goes - you could turn a perfectly catchable slide into a full on lift off oversteer situation. If you are in a low gear at high revs then snapping off the throttle is almost as bad as just pulling the hand brake. What you want to do is lift off enough to balance the rear wheels so that there's no excess power or braking forces so it gives them the best chance to regain grip.
The VXR8 has a much better integrated system that will cut fuel to cylinders in much the same way as the rpm cut out. This can be controlled more accurately by the ECU so isn't as violent but can still be a bit "up and down" if you just plant your right foot so the ECU is fighting the drivers input.
Just remember TC only helps in the one specific situation of the rear wheels letting go due to to much power.
The VXR8 also has SCS which will also use the brakes, steering input, gyro sensors and individual wheel speeds to calculate and if required attempt correction of the cars attitude if it steps out from it's defined boundaries. This helps is considerably more scanarios than TC alone.
One thing I would say that in my experience is that you should not just jump off the throttle if the back end goes - you could turn a perfectly catchable slide into a full on lift off oversteer situation. If you are in a low gear at high revs then snapping off the throttle is almost as bad as just pulling the hand brake. What you want to do is lift off enough to balance the rear wheels so that there's no excess power or braking forces so it gives them the best chance to regain grip.
ads_green said:
One thing I would say that in my experience is that you should not just jump off the throttle if the back end goes - you could turn a perfectly catchable slide into a full on lift off oversteer situation. If you are in a low gear at high revs then snapping off the throttle is almost as bad as just pulling the hand brake. What you want to do is lift off enough to balance the rear wheels so that there's no excess power or braking forces so it gives them the best chance to regain grip.
Totally agree, but you have to get use to it first and build up to that. Don't think that you can necessarily do that without mastering the first bit completely. Using the power to your advantage does take a bit of getting use to. Love it every day in the ute, you get alot of practice, especially when it is wet.
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