Quantity Surveyors? Necessary?
Discussion
Not a job that I've ever really given much thought to, but we are planning on doing some building work and, having just got plans passed with the authorities, I approached a colleague who is a QS for some advice.
We expressed an interest in his firm assisting with the project, and he's just sent in a fee estimate. £25K! , and he's not costed it up yet, although he has seen the basic plans. Do QS work on a scale fee? For fees of £25K, how much would you be expecting them to guarantee in savings? I'm meeting him later this week and need to know what questions to ask, please.
We expressed an interest in his firm assisting with the project, and he's just sent in a fee estimate. £25K! , and he's not costed it up yet, although he has seen the basic plans. Do QS work on a scale fee? For fees of £25K, how much would you be expecting them to guarantee in savings? I'm meeting him later this week and need to know what questions to ask, please.
Hobo said:
What is the expected total build cost of the project ?
We think it could be anywhere between £450 K (which is what we would really like and which is what the floor-area guess-timate was when we started out) and £600K plus (which would prove difficult). Isn't the cost something that QS is supposed to tell us?
On my projects I pay designers 6% and QS's 2%, more often than not I would just get my designers to complete the tender documnets and obatin costs, then use them as cost managers on the project - for which I will pay the designer 8%
ETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
ETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
Edited by spdpug98 on Monday 12th October 21:03
CY88 said:
Hobo said:
What is the expected total build cost of the project ?
We think it could be anywhere between £450 K (which is what we would really like and which is what the floor-area guess-timate was when we started out) and £600K plus (which would prove difficult). Isn't the cost something that QS is supposed to tell us?
For a £450k build £25k in QS fees is a bit steep, it depends however on how the project is going to be run and how much control you want to leave in the hands of the contractor
ie
Architect designed and controlled, contract awarded on tender, architect can control all variations / changes and keep a handle on costs, appoint your own QS if you really want to keep an eye on the contractor on site...high total fees but tight control
Appoint a contractor to design build, use your own QS to measure the works cost all variations / changes for you .....just the QS fees then but might get a lot of niggle between QS and builder without an architect to arbitrate for you
Appoint a contractor who you trust, pay him what he wants
ie
Architect designed and controlled, contract awarded on tender, architect can control all variations / changes and keep a handle on costs, appoint your own QS if you really want to keep an eye on the contractor on site...high total fees but tight control
Appoint a contractor to design build, use your own QS to measure the works cost all variations / changes for you .....just the QS fees then but might get a lot of niggle between QS and builder without an architect to arbitrate for you
Appoint a contractor who you trust, pay him what he wants
spdpug98 said:
On my projects I pay designers 6% and QS's 2%, more often than not I would just get my designers to complete the tender documnets and obatin costs, then use them as cost managers on the project - for which I will pay the designer 8%
ETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
that's a bit too simplistic as the fee pitch depends on the size of the development, the scope of service, travel, length of programme, etc, etcETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
Edited by spdpug98 on Monday 12th October 21:03
OP - work out what you want your QS to do (full service, valuations and contract admin only, etc) but in general terms a good QS will save you far more that he will cost (both in terms of time and money)
sleep envy said:
spdpug98 said:
On my projects I pay designers 6% and QS's 2%, more often than not I would just get my designers to complete the tender documnets and obatin costs, then use them as cost managers on the project - for which I will pay the designer 8%
ETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
that's a bit too simplistic as the fee pitch depends on the size of the development, the scope of service, travel, length of programme, etc, etcETA: The 8% would include all the work you have had done to date i.e. Planning & Building Regs approvals
Edited by spdpug98 on Monday 12th October 21:03
Thanks for the comments so far.
By way of further info, the size of the existing house is 1700 sq ft. Proposed living space will be 4000 sq ft once the work is done. The walls of the existing house will be retained, but nearly all the rooms gutted and knocked around. Then there's a new steel framed roof forming a new second floor over the whole of the existing house and new extension. I've been warned by my structural engineer that there are likely to be unpinning issues on one side of the existing house once they start digging the foundations. Labour prices over here are high unfortunately, maybe double what it would cost in the UK?
+1Sorry to sound a little slow, but I'm not sure what that means exactly? To whom would the QS be a complete tw@t?
By way of further info, the size of the existing house is 1700 sq ft. Proposed living space will be 4000 sq ft once the work is done. The walls of the existing house will be retained, but nearly all the rooms gutted and knocked around. Then there's a new steel framed roof forming a new second floor over the whole of the existing house and new extension. I've been warned by my structural engineer that there are likely to be unpinning issues on one side of the existing house once they start digging the foundations. Labour prices over here are high unfortunately, maybe double what it would cost in the UK?
Lefty Guns said:
Busamav said:
Hobo said:
a good QS would save you far more than 25k on a 450k project IMO. He could actually save you a damn site more if you didn't mind him being a complete tw@t.
That is a perfect summary Edited by CY88 on Tuesday 13th October 14:21
On a more serious note (and I've not worked in the building industry for a number of years so bear with me).
You obviously need to find out exactly what he's assuming doing for the price he's quoted.
Is he going to be working on the design and specs of the project to give professional value advice up front?
Or is it an old fashioned BQ and contract management of a lump-sum project(including a tender estimate, tender analysis, valuations, forecasts, variations and final accounts?)
It's maybe not too bad a price in a closed market like Jersey (or is Guernsay?). But it depends on what he thinks his scope of work is.
Anyway, back when I did work in the industry (private practice), yes we always worked on fee-scales.
You obviously need to find out exactly what he's assuming doing for the price he's quoted.
Is he going to be working on the design and specs of the project to give professional value advice up front?
Or is it an old fashioned BQ and contract management of a lump-sum project(including a tender estimate, tender analysis, valuations, forecasts, variations and final accounts?)
It's maybe not too bad a price in a closed market like Jersey (or is Guernsay?). But it depends on what he thinks his scope of work is.
Anyway, back when I did work in the industry (private practice), yes we always worked on fee-scales.
Edited by Lefty Guns on Tuesday 13th October 14:29
eps said:
There's at least 1 QS on PH.. PM me if you want his contact details.
There are heaps of us.http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Lefty Guns said:
On a more serious note (and I've not worked in the building industry for a number of years so bear with me).
You obviously need to find out exactly what he's assuming doing for the price he's quoted.
Is he going to be working on the design and specs of the project to give professional value advice up front?
Or is it an old fashioned BQ and contract management of a lump-sum project(including a tender estimate, tender analysis, valuations, forecasts, variations and final accounts?)
It's maybe not too bad a price in a closed market like Jersey (or is Guernsay?). But it depends on what he thinks his scope of work is.
The architect has currently drawn up plans, largely to our design. The plans themselves foresee higher than average spec materials to a standard over and above the minimum statutory requirements re: insulation / glazing etc. I've also had a structural engineer on board to ensure that what is planned isn't going to fall down, so to speak. I am currently dealing with Bye Law consent.You obviously need to find out exactly what he's assuming doing for the price he's quoted.
Is he going to be working on the design and specs of the project to give professional value advice up front?
Or is it an old fashioned BQ and contract management of a lump-sum project(including a tender estimate, tender analysis, valuations, forecasts, variations and final accounts?)
It's maybe not too bad a price in a closed market like Jersey (or is Guernsay?). But it depends on what he thinks his scope of work is.
In essence the QS appears to be proposing:
- prep and development of cost plan during design stage (at the moment I'm probably going to just ask that this is done on a time spent basis)
- doing all tendering (and prep of tender docs) with reports to us on the replies, based on our specific requirements
- forecasts for fluctuations and cash flow accordingly
- drawing up contracts
- establishing standard procedures with contractor for valuations . payments on account
- weekly meetings with contractor to ensure compliance with costings
- organisation of interim payments when appropriate and final account
Edited by CY88 on Tuesday 13th October 17:11
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