Legal standing - landlord trying to evict us
Discussion
Short version: We've just renewed our contract for another year on our currenty dwelling. It's privately rented, but through a letting agency acting for the landlord. We've never missed a payment or had any problems. We renewed for a year in early September.
Today, I recieved a letter dated 12th October 2009 stating that our lettings agency had recieved a 'number of complaints' about noise emitting from our house due to work being carried out on cars. I freely admit during daylight hours I have used a small angle grinder for rust removal and things like that, but on an infrequent basis. Our TVR is also rather loud and is currently SORN. I do start it from time to time to get access to my garage and generally to keep it in good health. I appreciate it's a slightly anti-social car in a neighbourhood full of retirees, but I always try to be as subtle as possible and do take steps to not cause bother in general.
The letter went on to say that if further noise pollution is reported, action will be taken. in other words, stop it now!
This letter was sent 2nd class, the envelope is stamped 14th October. I recieved it today.
Shortly after, another letter was put through the door by hand from the lettings agency. This basically said that 'despite our previous letter, further reports have been recieved' and that our landlord is serving us a section 21 order to possess the property within 2 months. I've been at work since the weekend, and on the sunday I was working on the TVR (basically putting it on stands to address some some issues). The garage door was closed most of the day, and I really cannot see how anyone heard me jack a car up and remove the wheels! (especially when most around here must be hard of hearing!)
In any case, we've researched and spoken to some people in the know, who've informed us that Section 21's can only be served at the end of a tenancy during an Assured Shorthold Agreement Tenancy, and the fact they have sent us this is laughable. They would need to send us a Section 8 notice, which involves going to court and proof being presented of our "anti-social noise."
To add insult to injury, we've just become parents to a cracking pair of identical twin boys. They're 4 months old now, and come 4th January (the date we're to move) they'll be 7 months. They'd spend their first Christmas in a living room full of boxes with no presents from their parents who are having to use all their savings to find somewhere to live!
Now I have relatives in council flats. I know what anti-social behaviour is. I've seen drug dealing, vandalism, abuse of all kinds, and these people have been in these flats sometimes years before they finally get given the heave-ho!
I'm not an unreasonable man. If someone had a problem, I was they'd had the diplomacy to come and tap on the door and explain the noise I'm creating is travelling further than I realise and ask I bear it in mind. I can't be in two places at once, and my immediate neighbour (who has offered to come down to the letting agency and state we're not making enough noise to bother her) hasn't mentioned it, only that the TVR is loud and thankfully it's not started all that often at the moment.
My question (after that short essay) is....where do I stand legally? Can they do this? Because obviously, my number one concern is making sure my family has a roof over it's head during the winter.
Thanks to anyone who can help.
Today, I recieved a letter dated 12th October 2009 stating that our lettings agency had recieved a 'number of complaints' about noise emitting from our house due to work being carried out on cars. I freely admit during daylight hours I have used a small angle grinder for rust removal and things like that, but on an infrequent basis. Our TVR is also rather loud and is currently SORN. I do start it from time to time to get access to my garage and generally to keep it in good health. I appreciate it's a slightly anti-social car in a neighbourhood full of retirees, but I always try to be as subtle as possible and do take steps to not cause bother in general.
The letter went on to say that if further noise pollution is reported, action will be taken. in other words, stop it now!
This letter was sent 2nd class, the envelope is stamped 14th October. I recieved it today.
Shortly after, another letter was put through the door by hand from the lettings agency. This basically said that 'despite our previous letter, further reports have been recieved' and that our landlord is serving us a section 21 order to possess the property within 2 months. I've been at work since the weekend, and on the sunday I was working on the TVR (basically putting it on stands to address some some issues). The garage door was closed most of the day, and I really cannot see how anyone heard me jack a car up and remove the wheels! (especially when most around here must be hard of hearing!)
In any case, we've researched and spoken to some people in the know, who've informed us that Section 21's can only be served at the end of a tenancy during an Assured Shorthold Agreement Tenancy, and the fact they have sent us this is laughable. They would need to send us a Section 8 notice, which involves going to court and proof being presented of our "anti-social noise."
To add insult to injury, we've just become parents to a cracking pair of identical twin boys. They're 4 months old now, and come 4th January (the date we're to move) they'll be 7 months. They'd spend their first Christmas in a living room full of boxes with no presents from their parents who are having to use all their savings to find somewhere to live!
Now I have relatives in council flats. I know what anti-social behaviour is. I've seen drug dealing, vandalism, abuse of all kinds, and these people have been in these flats sometimes years before they finally get given the heave-ho!
I'm not an unreasonable man. If someone had a problem, I was they'd had the diplomacy to come and tap on the door and explain the noise I'm creating is travelling further than I realise and ask I bear it in mind. I can't be in two places at once, and my immediate neighbour (who has offered to come down to the letting agency and state we're not making enough noise to bother her) hasn't mentioned it, only that the TVR is loud and thankfully it's not started all that often at the moment.
My question (after that short essay) is....where do I stand legally? Can they do this? Because obviously, my number one concern is making sure my family has a roof over it's head during the winter.
Thanks to anyone who can help.
1. Is it feasible for you to go and see your neighbours and ask if there has ever been a problem? If they are friendly then they might be happy to put it into writing that there is no issue.
2. Phone your Landlord and ask him what the deal is. Maybe he just wants you out pronto for a very good reason. Maybe you can come to an agreement. Speaking as a Landlord, serving an eviction notice (and following it through) is a whole load of hassle I don't want - especially if you are a good tenant.
2. Phone your Landlord and ask him what the deal is. Maybe he just wants you out pronto for a very good reason. Maybe you can come to an agreement. Speaking as a Landlord, serving an eviction notice (and following it through) is a whole load of hassle I don't want - especially if you are a good tenant.
OP have you actually signed a new agreement from September 2009, and do you have a copy signed by both parties in your possession? Or have you simply agreed that you will stay on under the existing agreement?
If you are within the fixed term (ie you have signed a new agreement) the s21 notice is worthless. The s21 notice to quit can be served within the fixed term and must give at least 2 months notice but cannot be expressed to expire until the fixed term expires, so I wouldnt worry about it at all.
If you have simply agreed to stay on, and not signed a new agreement then you hold over as a statutory periodic tenant, in which case the s21 notice will be valid. fatboy b is incorrect, in that s21 notices always have to give at least 2 months notice (Housing Act 1988 s21(1)(b)) and if in the 'periodic' element must be expressed to end on the last day of a period. If you have signed a new agreement don't worry about any of this paragraph.
The landlord can seek possession under section 8 of the Housing Act and the provisions of Schedule 2 of the same act. They would need to serve a section 8 notice, which they don't seem to have done yet outlining the grounds upon which they seek possession. When they serve this notice however (if relying on ground 14, see below) they can commence proceedings on or after the date of service of the notice (see HA 1988 s8(4)) The only one I can think to be relevant off the top of my head is ground 14, as mentioned -
"The tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house has been guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or annoyance to adjoining occupiers, or has been convicted of using the dwelling-house or allowing the dwelling-house to be used for immoral or illegal purposes."
This is a discretionary ground for possession, so not only would the landlord have to prove its case, but the Judge would have to consider it reasonable to grant an order for possession in the circumstances. He/She does not have to do so. Only you really know the degree of what may be deemed 'nuisance' that is taking place on your premises, ie the level of noise, frequency, time of day etc etc but they would have to issue a claim, particularising all of this, and you would have the opportunity to enter a defence setting out your own case. If they are not specific enough when issuing a claim you can request 'further and better particulars' of the alleged instances of nuisance.
Unless and until any of this happens I would just let it pass, keep your head down and try not to make any unreasonable noise. If you are within the fixed term of a new agreement, forget the section 21 notice until the term expires. If you are worried, like someone else said go and see the CAB they are ok with this kind of thing.
If you are within the fixed term (ie you have signed a new agreement) the s21 notice is worthless. The s21 notice to quit can be served within the fixed term and must give at least 2 months notice but cannot be expressed to expire until the fixed term expires, so I wouldnt worry about it at all.
If you have simply agreed to stay on, and not signed a new agreement then you hold over as a statutory periodic tenant, in which case the s21 notice will be valid. fatboy b is incorrect, in that s21 notices always have to give at least 2 months notice (Housing Act 1988 s21(1)(b)) and if in the 'periodic' element must be expressed to end on the last day of a period. If you have signed a new agreement don't worry about any of this paragraph.
The landlord can seek possession under section 8 of the Housing Act and the provisions of Schedule 2 of the same act. They would need to serve a section 8 notice, which they don't seem to have done yet outlining the grounds upon which they seek possession. When they serve this notice however (if relying on ground 14, see below) they can commence proceedings on or after the date of service of the notice (see HA 1988 s8(4)) The only one I can think to be relevant off the top of my head is ground 14, as mentioned -
"The tenant or any other person residing in the dwelling-house has been guilty of conduct which is a nuisance or annoyance to adjoining occupiers, or has been convicted of using the dwelling-house or allowing the dwelling-house to be used for immoral or illegal purposes."
This is a discretionary ground for possession, so not only would the landlord have to prove its case, but the Judge would have to consider it reasonable to grant an order for possession in the circumstances. He/She does not have to do so. Only you really know the degree of what may be deemed 'nuisance' that is taking place on your premises, ie the level of noise, frequency, time of day etc etc but they would have to issue a claim, particularising all of this, and you would have the opportunity to enter a defence setting out your own case. If they are not specific enough when issuing a claim you can request 'further and better particulars' of the alleged instances of nuisance.
Unless and until any of this happens I would just let it pass, keep your head down and try not to make any unreasonable noise. If you are within the fixed term of a new agreement, forget the section 21 notice until the term expires. If you are worried, like someone else said go and see the CAB they are ok with this kind of thing.
“We've never missed a payment or had any problems. We renewed for a year in early September.”
As Soprano stated if you have signed a NEW 12 month Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement in September 2009, then a section 21 Notice has no legal standing, the Letting Agents/Landlords should have served a section 8 Notice under ground 14, which is;
Ground 14 The tenant or someone living with him has caused a nuisance to neighbours, visitors or others in the locality or has been convicted of using the property for immoral or illegal purposes or has been convicted of an indictable offence committed in the locality.
I’m I right to make the assumption that you have stayed at the address more than 12 months, with the LA/Landlord just renewing the tenancy agreement last September, then to receive Notice so soon after renewing tenancy agreement is not going to help the landlord, ie. history/period of noise nuisance unreasonable.
If the section 21 Notice proceeds to Court, then the Courts will throw the case out, if a section 8 Notice should follow then the landlord would have to prove his case, which in view of your tenancy just being renewed, the Court might not find reasonable.
To the OP, what Soprano has posted is very sound advice, particularly in possibly asking you if you have actually signed a NEW tenancy agreement, that is critical, since if you have just “run on” the old tenancy agreement, then 2 months notice under a section 21 Notice can be given/used by the landlord.
As Soprano stated if you have signed a NEW 12 month Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement in September 2009, then a section 21 Notice has no legal standing, the Letting Agents/Landlords should have served a section 8 Notice under ground 14, which is;
Ground 14 The tenant or someone living with him has caused a nuisance to neighbours, visitors or others in the locality or has been convicted of using the property for immoral or illegal purposes or has been convicted of an indictable offence committed in the locality.
I’m I right to make the assumption that you have stayed at the address more than 12 months, with the LA/Landlord just renewing the tenancy agreement last September, then to receive Notice so soon after renewing tenancy agreement is not going to help the landlord, ie. history/period of noise nuisance unreasonable.
If the section 21 Notice proceeds to Court, then the Courts will throw the case out, if a section 8 Notice should follow then the landlord would have to prove his case, which in view of your tenancy just being renewed, the Court might not find reasonable.
To the OP, what Soprano has posted is very sound advice, particularly in possibly asking you if you have actually signed a NEW tenancy agreement, that is critical, since if you have just “run on” the old tenancy agreement, then 2 months notice under a section 21 Notice can be given/used by the landlord.
Many thanks for the advice. We have signed a fresh contract and it's not an extension of the old one. We went down to the lettings agents this morning and gave them both barrels. As soon as we mentioned legal, they backed straight down.
Apparently, a neighbour of ours has complained that "a business is being run from the garage" and that I have a very noisy car, which I "start and rev up on a daily basis."
Regarding the business, I found that one quite comical. I work 8am - 6pm during the week. Our garage has no power. We have four cars at the property, all off road. From time to time I carry out maintainance, all be it in a quiet manner. This hardly constitutes 'running a business!'
Regarding the car, utter crap! The car is SORN and is started once, maybe twice a month. It is never revved up, and idles for no more than 10mins, just to keep all moving parts moving! The car was recorded at 120db, but this was at 5500rpm at a track. It is a noisy car I grant, but there are other noises louder than that around here and I'm certainly considerate when doing anything TVR related.
I've spoken to our immediate neighbour, with whom we share a driveway. She aknowledged the car was loud, although was not used in a manner that caused her any grief (her kitchen door is about 4 metres from where the car is sat). She also said she'd stand up as a witness if it turned nasty.
We believe it's our neighbour in the other direction now. Word has gotten around fast (the locals have little else to do with their time) and info has come to light that it wouldn't be the first time she's made trouble for people. She caused a right stir with planning permission on a neighbour's shed which really didn't need any fuss at all just recently.
We've now basically got as far as the lettings agents backing down, saying we can stay the term. They've told the landlord we're going to write a letter to confirm we're not doing anything wrong. We've spoken to my g/f's auntie, who said we don't need to write such as letter as we're not in the wrong, and as previous posters have said, basically just ignore it and carry on. thats where we're at right now.
Thanks to all for your time.
Apparently, a neighbour of ours has complained that "a business is being run from the garage" and that I have a very noisy car, which I "start and rev up on a daily basis."
Regarding the business, I found that one quite comical. I work 8am - 6pm during the week. Our garage has no power. We have four cars at the property, all off road. From time to time I carry out maintainance, all be it in a quiet manner. This hardly constitutes 'running a business!'
Regarding the car, utter crap! The car is SORN and is started once, maybe twice a month. It is never revved up, and idles for no more than 10mins, just to keep all moving parts moving! The car was recorded at 120db, but this was at 5500rpm at a track. It is a noisy car I grant, but there are other noises louder than that around here and I'm certainly considerate when doing anything TVR related.
I've spoken to our immediate neighbour, with whom we share a driveway. She aknowledged the car was loud, although was not used in a manner that caused her any grief (her kitchen door is about 4 metres from where the car is sat). She also said she'd stand up as a witness if it turned nasty.
We believe it's our neighbour in the other direction now. Word has gotten around fast (the locals have little else to do with their time) and info has come to light that it wouldn't be the first time she's made trouble for people. She caused a right stir with planning permission on a neighbour's shed which really didn't need any fuss at all just recently.
We've now basically got as far as the lettings agents backing down, saying we can stay the term. They've told the landlord we're going to write a letter to confirm we're not doing anything wrong. We've spoken to my g/f's auntie, who said we don't need to write such as letter as we're not in the wrong, and as previous posters have said, basically just ignore it and carry on. thats where we're at right now.
Thanks to all for your time.
That's great.
Lots of good advice above too. Landlordzone and the CAB are excellent resources, I'd agree. As a tenant, you hold many more cards than you probably think, and you have plenty of protection in law.
Sounds like you've taken this approach already, but stay calm and reasonable, don't rise to provocation or issue threats and I think you'll be fine. As a landlord, if you're as considerate as you say I don't see you have anything to worry about. Good luck, and congrats on the twins!
Lots of good advice above too. Landlordzone and the CAB are excellent resources, I'd agree. As a tenant, you hold many more cards than you probably think, and you have plenty of protection in law.
Sounds like you've taken this approach already, but stay calm and reasonable, don't rise to provocation or issue threats and I think you'll be fine. As a landlord, if you're as considerate as you say I don't see you have anything to worry about. Good luck, and congrats on the twins!
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