Bike engined Lotus 7 replica? or fast car engined version...

[V6Alfisti]

I have recently sold my TVR Chimaera and after having driven a friends Caterham 7 a few years ago, I have always hankered after one.

My biggest problem with the Caterham is the k series which lacked ultimate punch for my taste.

I want something that handles as well as a Caterham but with some oooomphh!

I don't really fancy spending more than £7-8k on a L7 replica.

What are my options?.

I have next to no bike knowledge (lots of bikey friends however)and my first thoughts are something R1 based or Hayabusa? Or am I missing a clear winner? Are bike engines/gearboxes reliable in a car based frame (additional weight e.t.c)

Also I know of a few kit car manufacturers, such as Tiger/Robin Hood, is there a preferred kit?

I love the sound of a high powered V8, but think the weight of such a unit would ruin the handling? are there any massively quick petrol units that are favoured for these cars? maybe a C20LET (2.0 Turbo from Vauxhall)?

Insurance: Currently 24 years old and was insuring the Chim for £600 on a classic policy, I am guessing kit cars are similar if not less money?

Thanks

[Martin Keene]

Hi

Have a look at Westfield, most people would agree that they are the best of the rest and £8k is a nice budget for a Westfield.

Westfield have also produced a lot of bike engined cars, they also have a much wider choice of car engines.

As for insurance, I bought mine when I was 22 and have never paid more than ~£350.

[Sam_68]

Do a search. The topic has been done to death.

However:

V6Alfisti said:

My biggest problem with the Caterham is the k series which lacked ultimate punch for my taste.

I want something that handles as well as a Caterham but with some oooomphh!

Try before you buy. The K-series produces similar power to a Hayabusa (potentially more, unless the Busa is a blown hand-grenade special), but considerably more torque.

If you think that the K-series lacks 'oomph'...

Any difference in acceleration (and there's not as mucxh as you might think - I've had BEC owners who were pretty impressed by the acceleration of my K-series Westfield) is down to the ultra-short gearing on BECs, which means you've got to be buzzing the nuts of it to extract maximum performance. It gets on some people's tits, even if they're not used to the instant grunt of a big V8.

V6Alfisti said:

I don't really fancy spending more than £7-8k on a L7 replica. What are my options?

Not a decent Busa engined car, that's for sure. Given your criteria for 'oomph', you'd be better looking for something with a tuned Vauxhall 2.0 16V, I'd suggest.

V6Alfisti said:

Are bike engines/gearboxes reliable in a car based frame (additional weight etc.)

Not really, although some of the more rabid fan-boys will try to persuade you that they are.

V6Alfisti said:

Also I know of a few kit car manufacturers, such as Tiger/Robin Hood, is there a preferred kit?

Avoid Robin Hood like the plague. Some Tigers are OK, but they're a bit heavy, and avoid the Supercats (budget model with Sierra semi-trailing arm suspension which isn't the last word in handling technology).

Favoured marques in your budget range would be Westfield, Sylva, MK Indy or Vortex. Dax and Caterham are also pretty good, but wouldn't have an engine that meets your requirements in that budget range.

V6Alfisti said:

I love the sound of a high powered V8, but think the weight of such a unit would ruin the handling?

Yes. Although it'll still feel like a precision instrument compared to a TVR.

V6Alfisti said:

Insurance: Currently 24 years old and was insuring the Chim for £600 on a classic policy, I am guessing kit cars are similar if not less money?

Yes, definitely. Insurance is dirt cheap, through the specialists (certainly comparable to a Classic policy).

[Disco_Biscuit]

Get your self over the Locost Forum, all the answers will be there.

[Busa_Rush]

Don't write off the K series, in a kit car they feel really nice, the 1.6 in particular. The one I drove had different cams and throttle bodies, probably made 160ish bhp at a guess and sounded great and went really well. Felt a nice engine for a light kit car.

Is it possible the Caterham you drive had a standard 1.4 engine ? That would feel a bit sluggish.

[Busa_Rush]

Sam_68 said:

V6Alfisti said:

Are bike engines/gearboxes reliable in a car based frame (additional weight etc.)

Not really, although some of the more rabid fan-boys will try to persuade you that they are.

As we're getting near Christmas maybe I ought to say "Oh yes they are . . . " Hayabusa gearboxes anyway, people damage them by ignorance.

[V6Alfisti]

Busa_Rush said:

Don't write off the K series, in a kit car they feel really nice, the 1.6 in particular. The one I drove had different cams and throttle bodies, probably made 160ish bhp at a guess and sounded great and went really well. Felt a nice engine for a light kit car.

Is it possible the Caterham you drive had a standard 1.4 engine ? That would feel a bit sluggish.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

The Caterham I drove had a heavily modified 1.6 k series (as the car is actually used solely for track racing)and was a bit special to drive (in a good way). The car gives you a natural sense of speed, especially with the wet weather gear off and the vinyl doors off, but it ultimately lacked ooomph, but I totally fell in love with the steering/feel.

Previous comments about lack of torque on the bike units would prove annoying to me, I hate everything about the Civic Type R engine and most of my biker friends seem to relate the experience of a bike engine to that. I like a better balance between torque/revs, hence a revvy Alfa unit (with a nice balance of torque) or a thumping great V8.

If I move into Westfield/Caterham territory, I may be willing to go up to £10-12k but it would need to be very special for that money (as ultimately the car is a toy).

Cheap insurance....fantastic

[Bi22le]

I think you should stay along the lines of a CEC (car engined car) a BEC (Bike engined car) almost deffinatly aint your thing. They are fast, dont be told otherwise but it sounds like you like grunt!
There are V8 about for 10K-12K but they are heavier and the handling notices. They have grunt! Something like a 2.0L would be ideal. Zetec lumps are common, reliable and good bang for buck. Also within your budget.

Locost is the way to go. They are avid builders that know everything.

[Busa_Rush]

In that case I suggest you look for a turbo powered 7, like a 200SX engined car or a Cosworth engined car. Not sure a na engine will give you what you want as for your budget you're unlikely to get a really powerful na engine. I had to supercharge my busa engine to get what I wanted

http://pistonheads.com/sales/1091513.htm might be worth a look for a V8

Ths would have been ideal and left loads of cash for mods and track days http://pistonheads.com/sales/1140690.htm

[Sam_68]

Busa_Rush said:

In that case I suggest you look for a turbo powered 7, like a 200SX engined car or a Cosworth engined car.

That's a good call, although they're fairly few and far between.

And remember that a turbo Cosworth installation will be just as heavy as a Rover V8.

There's a balance to be had with Sevens, though - they can only take as much torque as the back tyres can transmit to the tarmac. That in turn is limited by the cars very light weight and the fact that if you over-tyre them, it's difficult to get cosistent grip (the high sprung:unsprung weight ratio means that the amount of weight per square millimetre of contact patch becomes very variable on anything less than perfect tarmac).

...the net result is that it becomes tricky to modulate the throttle precisely enough on engines with stump-pulling levels of torque, which makes them a bit lairy, and the character of the engine overwhelms the driving experience - which on a Seven should be about chassis response and precision.

It should tell you something that the two companies most respected for the handling of their 'Sevens' - Caterham and Sylva (Jeremy Phillips) - have never really favoured either bike engines or V8's. The 'sweet spot' lies somewhere in between, and they favour lightweight 4 cylinder car engines for very good reason.

Finally, Griffith/Chimaera generation TVR's are just about as diametrically opposed to Sevens as its possible to get in 2-seat British sports cars, so if you love your Chimaera, I'd be thinking long and hard about whether a Seven will even suit you at all for a long-term relationship.

[V6Alfisti]

Sam_68 said:

Busa_Rush said:

In that case I suggest you look for a turbo powered 7, like a 200SX engined car or a Cosworth engined car.

That's a good call, although they're fairly few and far between.

And remember that a turbo Cosworth installation will be just as heavy as a Rover V8.

There's a balance to be had with Sevens, though - they can only take as much torque as the back tyres can transmit to the tarmac. That in turn is limited by the cars very light weight and the fact that if you over-tyre them, it's difficult to get cosistent grip (the high sprung:unsprung weight ratio means that the amount of weight per square millimetre of contact patch becomes very variable on anything less than perfect tarmac).

...the net result is that it becomes tricky to modulate the throttle precisely enough on engines with stump-pulling levels of torque, which makes them a bit lairy, and the character of the engine overwhelms the driving experience - which on a Seven should be about chassis response and precision.

It should tell you something that the two companies most respected for the handling of their 'Sevens' - Caterham and Sylva (Jeremy Phillips) - have never really favoured either bike engines or V8's. The 'sweet spot' lies somewhere in between, and they favour lightweight 4 cylinder car engines for very good reason.

Finally, Griffith/Chimaera generation TVR's are just about as diametrically opposed to Sevens as its possible to get in 2-seat British sports cars, so if you love your Chimaera, I'd be thinking long and hard about whether a Seven will even suit you at all for a long-term relationship.

Thanks,

I loved the sheer grunt of the Chimaera but for me it wasn't all there dynamically (however the Chimaera certainly had a million things going for it, that resulted in me keeping it for a year - long for me).

I prefer the nimbleness/responsiveness of an Elise/Caterham, but it seems I can't have my power fix with sublime handling.

Deep consideration needs to now be undertaken to decide between a higher powered variant of the S2 Elise/VX220 Turbo or an out and out fun car (Lotus 7 variant)

You've all given me some food for thought

[Chet Jr]

You may want to consider Jeremy Phillips new "full bodied R1ot" but with an extended wheelbase and a 2008 Hayabusa. The power to weight ratio, quality and appearance is outstanding.

Please note that a stock 2008 Hayabusa has 194 HP, six speed sequential trans, fuel injection, proven performance, 10,500 redline, and the engine and trans together weigh about 90 kgs.

There are a number of very good lightweight engines available but the weight of the entire engine & trans is significantly greater than the Busa pkg and ultimately impacts all aspects of performance including acceleration, handling, and braking.

Chet

Edited by Chet Jr on Tuesday 20th October 17:27

[toby tucker]

Having owned a Mk 1 Lotus Elise they were bags of fun on the track and fairly civilised for every day use too - you should be able to pick up a good one for £8k, which leaves you something for power upgrades.

My Megablade is definitely fun on the track , but not something I'd consider for anything else - and IMO way too loud and too uncomfortable for anything other than 5-10 mile blats.

[hugh_]

I still hanker after a TVR, and I'll own a Cerb one day, hopefully not too far away but who knows! I considered a Chim last year when I sold the Fury and test drove a couple of 400's, one an HC from Racing Green which felt docile and slow compared to the Fury (which had a Fireblade - 130hp, ~500kg); the 450 by comparison felt very similar to the Fury but I didnt want to spend that much at the time. My point is not to belittle the Chim but rather point out that I'd imagine alot of the 2l CECs with ~160hp or more and weighing in at about 550kg should feel fine!

[V6Alfisti]

toby tucker said:

Having owned a Mk 1 Lotus Elise they were bags of fun on the track and fairly civilised for every day use too - you should be able to pick up a good one for £8k, which leaves you something for power upgrades.

My Megablade is definitely fun on the track , but not something I'd consider for anything else - and IMO way too loud and too uncomfortable for anything other than 5-10 mile blats.

I do love the MK1 Elise, I just find them a little underpowered and not really into the modifying game. I guess an Exige could be more what I am looking for, but when I get to that money I would start being tempted by Maserati 4200's. (As a petrolhead, we all know that preconceived budgets soon spiral )

[V6Alfisti]

hugh_ said:

I still hanker after a TVR, and I'll own a Cerb one day, hopefully not too far away but who knows! I considered a Chim last year when I sold the Fury and test drove a couple of 400's, one an HC from Racing Green which felt docile and slow compared to the Fury (which had a Fireblade - 130hp, ~500kg); the 450 by comparison felt very similar to the Fury but I didnt want to spend that much at the time. My point is not to belittle the Chim but rather point out that I'd imagine alot of the 2l CECs with ~160hp or more and weighing in at about 550kg should feel fine!

Trouble being that I have been in a friends Cerb which was quick, but not scarily so. It does have a different power delivery to the RV8 unit though and RV8's are massively affected by Cam Lobe wear, luckily mine was a low mileage one.

My Chim was a quick car, but again the acceleration wasn't electrifying but more satisfying (apart from when I got caught in snow and any tweak nearly sent it into a ditch!) but I always wanted more of that pointability I found in Elise's/Caterham.

The Caterham was a full race spec jobbie, even with it's k series origins I can't imagine it was any less than 150hp and I still wanted more.

One of the best drives i've had, was in the race spec Caterham, but with more power....it would have been verging on perfect.

[hugh_]

hmmm, sounds like this might have been spot on, shame its sold http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/775581.htm

[matt frost]

I would look into MK Indy. You can have them built new for circa 8k with an R1 engine in. Very good value.

[RT Phil]

What ever you buy it will be a different driving experience from a TVR, it will be more involving - not the point and squirt that is TVR, i have had two and used to think they were good now i have a Stylus RT(see profile) and would not have another TVR, OK it doesn't have the grunt of a V8 but it is faster and handles extremely well.

[LaurenceFrost]

V6Alfisti said:

If I move into Westfield/Caterham territory, I may be willing to go up to £10-12k but it would need to be very special for that money (as ultimately the car is a toy).

For £12k you could just about build a brand new Megablade kit yourself if you were strick with options. For me, building the car was the biggest part of the deal, but I can see that others would want to just go out and buy something ready-built.

Although I can see where the Civic Type R reference has come from, it's like comparing spagetti and string. You would really have to go out in a bike engined car to make a real decision. Although it's a high revs and little torque arrangement, it's just awesome - if you're into that thing of course

Something that's got to be worth a mention is the Ztec engine though. Partly due to its simplicity (most kit manufacturers have engine crades for them), but also its low cost and further tuning options.