Planning expert required

[ineedagallardo]

The initial message was deleted from this topic on 19 April 2010 at 19:04

[JCB123]

1) You don't need Planning Permission unless you're in a conservation area or the gates are over 6ft.....has someone told you othrewise?

2) Technically you can't put the gate where you are proposing as this right of way (and I'm only assuming without seeing it on the ground) was designed as a sort of 'turning space' for your neighbours.....

3) If you have a good relationship with your neighbours and they don't ever drive onto this bit of drive, go and talk to them regarding what you are proposing to do, and I'm sure there won't be a problem...

[TooLateForAName]

If their deeds show a right of way over that land then the councils OK counts for nothing.

You need to get the neigbhours to relinquish the right of way. Assuming that turning isnt an issue then that shouldnt be difficult but there would be a cost to get this registerd in the deeds fo rthe various properties at the land registry.

Plus, you probably need to pay them off. If I had a right of way and someone proposed blocking it then I would want paying.

edit: Are you sure that red land is yours? what about the land in front of the other houses? Is this an unadopted road?

Edited by TooLateForAName on Monday 19th October 16:54

[ineedagallardo]

TooLateForAName said:

If their deeds show a right of way over that land then the councils OK counts for nothing.

You need to get the neigbhours to relinquish the right of way. Assuming that turning isnt an issue then that shouldnt be difficult but there would be a cost to get this registerd in the deeds fo rthe various properties at the land registry.

Plus, you probably need to pay them off. If I had a right of way and someone proposed blocking it then I would want paying.

edit: Are you sure that red land is yours? what about the land in front of the other houses? Is this an unadopted road?

Edited by TooLateForAName on Monday 19th October 16:54

The red part is what is listed on the deeds, I beleive it maybe a public right of way, However as can be seen it goes over my boundarys for some reason.

The only benifit for the right of way for them would be for reversing out of there drive for turning which doesnt ever happen as my car is parked there.

[TooLateForAName]

Seems very strange to me that a recent build would have a public right of way over your land. Are you sure that your land boundary doesnt exclude the red bit?


You may well get away with installing a gate (despite the fact that you have no legal right to obstruct the right of way), but expect issues if one of the other houses sells and the solicitor/survey picks up that you've obstructed it.

[Sam_68]

TooLateForAName said:

If their deeds show a right of way over that land then the councils OK counts for nothing.

You do need to be clear about what Planning is... what it controls and what it doesn't, in other words.

It does NOT consider your legal rights in terms of ownership and access when developing land.

I could submit a Planning Application tomorrow to demolish your house and build another house to my own design in its place and the fact that I don't own the land doesn't matter a jot in Planning terms(so long as I serve notice on you that I have made the application). But if they granted Planning permission, that doesn't mean that I have the right to walk on to your property and start work.

Similarly, you may be able to install your gate under 'permitted development rights' (ie. you don't need Planning Permission); the Planners don't care that you have a legal obligation to maintain unobstructed/uninhibited access to the shared part of your drive, but that doesn't mean your neighbours couldn't sue you if you blocked them.

Your title deeds will almost certainly show the shared part of the drive tinted/shaded in a particular colour and there will be a written description of your neighbours rights of access across that part of the drive.

It is this that you need to be looking at, [i]not Planning permissioni/i], in the first instance. No matter how well I got on with you, if you were my neighbour, I would not be willing to cede these rights to you (which would require a legal deed of variation to the title of all properties sharing the rights of access) without compensation, because once such rights are relinquished, you can't ever claim them back.

TooLateForAName said:

Seems very strange to me that a recent build would have a public right of way over your land.

It isn't a 'public right of way', it's what's referred to as a 'shared private drive'. Only the properties who share it have benefit of its use. It will be written into the title deeds of each house that they have uninhibited rights of access.

It's perfectly normal, even on modern developments - we do it all the time.

The general rule (from Highways Authorities) is that this arrangement is acceptable to serve up to a maximum of 5 houses. Over 5, and you need a road and turning head designed to 'adoptable' standards (ie. to a specification that the Highways authroity would be willing to take on and maintain), which costs the developer a lot more money and takes up a lot more land (adoptable roads must have turning heads big enough to turn a refuse vehicle, ambulance or fire engine, whereas a private drive only has to be suitable for private cars).

Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 19th October 19:02

[Sam_68]

ineedagallardo said:

...how much would you be looking for in terms of compensation?

As much as I thought I could get. But then I'm a moderately ruthless (but pragmatic) bd.

You might have nice, helpful neighbours who have those little fish symbols on the back of their cars, who would allow you to change their deeds for nothing more than covering their legal costs, or you might have a ruthless (and irrationally obstructive) bd who wouldn't agree to it unless you buy his house from him at twice the market value. Or you might have a mixture of the two - and remember that you will need [i]everyone[i/] who shares rights of access to that bit of land - even the house at the end who doesn't really need to use it at all - to sign up to the Deed of Variation for it to be useful. And there is no mechanism to 'force' then to relinquish their rights of access; it would have to be by negotiation.

Short answer: it depends...

ineedagallardo said:

...IYO would gating my property add any sort of value to it

Again, difficult to say. We occasionally put automatic gates on the ends of private drives (rather than serving individual properties) to create a feel of exclusivity. Our Sales department love them, because they see them as a nice feature that make the houses easier to sell, but we don't weight the sales prices of the houses much because of them. I guess you have to look on them like options on a car... you won't be able to price the resale value of the car to fully cover the cost of what you paid in the first place, but it might make you car that little bit more appealing (hence easier to sell) when the time comes to shift it.

There are some people who actually view automatic gates as a negative: they delay entry and exit every time you use them, and they break down, but on average I would say that they add a little to the desirability.

[ineedagallardo]

I suppose the best thing to do is offer them a couple of grand each and see what they say, As already mentioned i could always put the gates there anyway but dont want to have to go through the headache of having to remove them later down the line.

I'll see how i get on.