Woodburner installation trouble.... cowboy advice please.
Discussion
After having a chat with my folks (Dad 76 and Mother 66) I decided that it may be an idea to post this in order to see if anyone has any bright ideas.
The folks have got a bit of spare money and have set about sorting their old cottage out. They decided to have a wood/multifuel burner fitted with a back boiler as well as a new immersion heater.
The upshot is that the installation was a crap job. It was done in 2005 and worked successfully for 3 months until it rained. The rain caused tar deposits to be washed down the chimney both inside and outside the liner, making a mess on the floor. Because the boiler was installed, it was impossible to clean the flues close to the firebox. They contacted the firm and they "fitted" a further access in the flue pipe. This was still not satisfactory as the rain was causing the sooty deposit to aggregate like concrete. A new cowl was fitted to the external flue but this rapidly decayed and blew away. In Feb this year, the stove proved impossible to light and gave the apperance that the flue was blocked. Cue room being filled with fumes, etc. Since feb, the house has had no hot water because the immersion heater "never worked", despite numerous attempts to contact the firm who supplied this abortion they had no satisfaction. They sent the firm a demand that they remove the whole thing and return the money in order that another firm could attempt to do a satisfactory job.
At the moment, nothing seems to be progressing.
If the burner is attempted to be lit, fumes containing a fair proportion of CO and SO2 (measured by my industrial gas meter) fill the room, making breathing difficult. To add to the hazard, there are pools of coal tar which burn the skin and dissolve masonry after it rains. To my mind, my old folks deserve some hot water and getting the job done. They spoke to HETAS, who are the quango concerned with these matters and offered to pay £300 for an engineer to come and write a report, however they appear to not be interested in the slightest.
Basically, they want someone offical to inspect this. They would also like to know where they stand in terms of this dangerous, bodged installation.
The second photo shows the nice sharp edged hole they hacked in it, along with the bodged on sleeve that leaks poisonous gases!
All help or suggestions hugely welcome.
I also gather my folks are not the only people that have been "done" by these cowboys.
Edit:- This was a £3K job.
The folks have got a bit of spare money and have set about sorting their old cottage out. They decided to have a wood/multifuel burner fitted with a back boiler as well as a new immersion heater.
The upshot is that the installation was a crap job. It was done in 2005 and worked successfully for 3 months until it rained. The rain caused tar deposits to be washed down the chimney both inside and outside the liner, making a mess on the floor. Because the boiler was installed, it was impossible to clean the flues close to the firebox. They contacted the firm and they "fitted" a further access in the flue pipe. This was still not satisfactory as the rain was causing the sooty deposit to aggregate like concrete. A new cowl was fitted to the external flue but this rapidly decayed and blew away. In Feb this year, the stove proved impossible to light and gave the apperance that the flue was blocked. Cue room being filled with fumes, etc. Since feb, the house has had no hot water because the immersion heater "never worked", despite numerous attempts to contact the firm who supplied this abortion they had no satisfaction. They sent the firm a demand that they remove the whole thing and return the money in order that another firm could attempt to do a satisfactory job.
At the moment, nothing seems to be progressing.
If the burner is attempted to be lit, fumes containing a fair proportion of CO and SO2 (measured by my industrial gas meter) fill the room, making breathing difficult. To add to the hazard, there are pools of coal tar which burn the skin and dissolve masonry after it rains. To my mind, my old folks deserve some hot water and getting the job done. They spoke to HETAS, who are the quango concerned with these matters and offered to pay £300 for an engineer to come and write a report, however they appear to not be interested in the slightest.
Basically, they want someone offical to inspect this. They would also like to know where they stand in terms of this dangerous, bodged installation.
The second photo shows the nice sharp edged hole they hacked in it, along with the bodged on sleeve that leaks poisonous gases!
All help or suggestions hugely welcome.
I also gather my folks are not the only people that have been "done" by these cowboys.
Edit:- This was a £3K job.
Edited by Shoot Blair on Wednesday 21st October 15:45
Shoot Blair said:
After having a chat with my folks (Dad 76 and Mother 66) I decided that it may be an idea to post this in order to see if anyone has any bright ideas.
The folks have got a bit of spare money and have set about sorting their old cottage out. They decided to have a wood/multifuel burner fitted with a back boiler as well as a new immersion heater.
The upshot is that the installation was a crap job. It was done in 2005 and worked successfully for 3 months until it rained. The rain caused tar deposits to be washed down the chimney both inside and outside the liner, making a mess on the floor. Because the boiler was installed, it was impossible to clean the flues close to the firebox. They contacted the firm and they "fitted" a further access in the flue pipe. This was still not satisfactory as the rain was causing the sooty deposit to aggregate like concrete. A new cowl was fitted to the external flue but this rapidly decayed and blew away. In Feb this year, the stove proved impossible to light and gave the apperance that the flue was blocked. Cue room being filled with fumes, etc. Since feb, the house has had no hot water because the immersion heater "never worked", despite numerous attempts to contact the firm who supplied this abortion they had no satisfaction. They sent the firm a demand that they remove the whole thing and return the money in order that another firm could attempt to do a satisfactory job.
At the moment, nothing seems to be progressing.
If the burner is attempted to be lit, fumes containing a fair proportion of CO and SO2 (measured by my industrial gas meter) fill the room, making breathing difficult. To add to the hazard, there are pools of coal tar which burn the skin and dissolve masonry after it rains. To my mind, my old folks deserve some hot water and getting the job done. They spoke to HETAS, who are the quango concerned with these matters and offered to pay £300 for an engineer to come and write a report, however they appear to not be interested in the slightest.
Basically, they want someone offical to inspect this. They would also like to know where they stand in terms of this dangerous, bodged installation.
The second photo shows the nice sharp edged hole they hacked in it, along with the bodged on sleeve that leaks poisonous gases!
All help or suggestions hugely welcome.
I also gather my folks are not the only people that have been "done" by these cowboys.
Edit:- This was a £3K job.
My Brother has just had a WB stove with back boiler installed & he has found that while it works, you do need to burn it hot. The backboiler wicks a lot of heat away from the stove & so he has found it is quite easy to get a build up of what is basically pure creosote. This happens when the flu gases are not kept hot enough & the creosote condenses out. This seems to be much more common (and difficult to manage) problem than it is with a stove without a back boiler.The folks have got a bit of spare money and have set about sorting their old cottage out. They decided to have a wood/multifuel burner fitted with a back boiler as well as a new immersion heater.
The upshot is that the installation was a crap job. It was done in 2005 and worked successfully for 3 months until it rained. The rain caused tar deposits to be washed down the chimney both inside and outside the liner, making a mess on the floor. Because the boiler was installed, it was impossible to clean the flues close to the firebox. They contacted the firm and they "fitted" a further access in the flue pipe. This was still not satisfactory as the rain was causing the sooty deposit to aggregate like concrete. A new cowl was fitted to the external flue but this rapidly decayed and blew away. In Feb this year, the stove proved impossible to light and gave the apperance that the flue was blocked. Cue room being filled with fumes, etc. Since feb, the house has had no hot water because the immersion heater "never worked", despite numerous attempts to contact the firm who supplied this abortion they had no satisfaction. They sent the firm a demand that they remove the whole thing and return the money in order that another firm could attempt to do a satisfactory job.
At the moment, nothing seems to be progressing.
If the burner is attempted to be lit, fumes containing a fair proportion of CO and SO2 (measured by my industrial gas meter) fill the room, making breathing difficult. To add to the hazard, there are pools of coal tar which burn the skin and dissolve masonry after it rains. To my mind, my old folks deserve some hot water and getting the job done. They spoke to HETAS, who are the quango concerned with these matters and offered to pay £300 for an engineer to come and write a report, however they appear to not be interested in the slightest.
Basically, they want someone offical to inspect this. They would also like to know where they stand in terms of this dangerous, bodged installation.
The second photo shows the nice sharp edged hole they hacked in it, along with the bodged on sleeve that leaks poisonous gases!
All help or suggestions hugely welcome.
I also gather my folks are not the only people that have been "done" by these cowboys.
Edit:- This was a £3K job.
With any WB stove it is important to burn it hard regularly to keep the chimney clean. As above, its especially important with a stove with a back boiler. If they havn't been doing that then I'm afraid much of this problem is self inflicted.
The other key thing is what kind of wood have they been burning? If they have been burning anything other than seasoned Oak/Beech/Ash etc then that too will have added to the problem.
From what you describe the whole chimney is now either blocked or at least very heavily lined with creosote & I would not attempt to light the thing again until you find a way to get it cleaned out. That may mean a complete dismantling/removal of the stove in order to open the thing up.
One thing that may also help is to replace that flu pipe on top of the stove with an insulated section. At the moment a lot of heat will be lost from that pipe (into the room). The side effect of that is that the flu gases going up the chimney are therefore cooler & so that leads to more creosote condensation/buildup. An insulated section would help keep the chimney hotter.
The immersion heater is a different problem & any competent plumber (and possibly his electrician mate) should be able to sort that out.
Edited by Iain328 on Wednesday 21st October 16:14
I forgot to add, whilst it is technically a woodburner, the (correct) size according to the regs means that you can't get wood into it! Hence it has run on reformed coal.
Personally, I suspect that the problem is the lack of void filling between the chimney and the liner. Hence too much cooling, convection etc and condensation lining the liner, which soot then adheres to. Forgot to add it was unfit for purpose in that manner.
The thing was being run on the most fussy fuel. Smokeless, etc.
I'm not sure of the regs, but I would say the lack of void filling is the whole problem. This isn't rocket science and the importance of flue temperature is vital to not having oils refluxing in there.
It's not as if they haven't had it cleaned every couple of weeks either.
My folks are not stove engineers and to get my gas meter out and getting 240ppm CO was taking the piss. I threw water on the fire and it hasn't run since.
The thing was not fitted correctly and the result is something which is unusable and dangerous. My folks getting nowhere with anyone and not having had running hot water in the house is ridiculous. My sense stops me making heads roll. I'd like advice to help heads roll in a legal manner.
Personally, I suspect that the problem is the lack of void filling between the chimney and the liner. Hence too much cooling, convection etc and condensation lining the liner, which soot then adheres to. Forgot to add it was unfit for purpose in that manner.
The thing was being run on the most fussy fuel. Smokeless, etc.
I'm not sure of the regs, but I would say the lack of void filling is the whole problem. This isn't rocket science and the importance of flue temperature is vital to not having oils refluxing in there.
It's not as if they haven't had it cleaned every couple of weeks either.
My folks are not stove engineers and to get my gas meter out and getting 240ppm CO was taking the piss. I threw water on the fire and it hasn't run since.
The thing was not fitted correctly and the result is something which is unusable and dangerous. My folks getting nowhere with anyone and not having had running hot water in the house is ridiculous. My sense stops me making heads roll. I'd like advice to help heads roll in a legal manner.
Edited by Shoot Blair on Wednesday 21st October 16:17
Shoot Blair said:
I forgot to add, whilst it is technically a woodburner, the (correct) size according to the regs means that you can't get wood into it! Hence it has run on reformed coal.
Personally, I suspect that the problem is the lack of void filling between the chimney and the liner. Hence too much cooling, convection etc and condensation lining the liner, which soot then adheres to. Forgot to add it was unfit for purpose in that manner.
The thing was being run on the most fussy fuel. Smokeless, etc.
I'm not sure of the regs, but I would say the lack of void filling is the whole problem. This isn't rocket science and the importance of flue temperature is vital to not having oils refluxing in there.
It's not as if they haven't had it cleaned every couple of weeks either.
My folks are not stove engineers and to get my gas meter out and getting 240ppm was taking the piss. I threw water on it and it hasn't run since.
First & obvious question - is that stove designed to be dual fuel or is it just a woodburner?Personally, I suspect that the problem is the lack of void filling between the chimney and the liner. Hence too much cooling, convection etc and condensation lining the liner, which soot then adheres to. Forgot to add it was unfit for purpose in that manner.
The thing was being run on the most fussy fuel. Smokeless, etc.
I'm not sure of the regs, but I would say the lack of void filling is the whole problem. This isn't rocket science and the importance of flue temperature is vital to not having oils refluxing in there.
It's not as if they haven't had it cleaned every couple of weeks either.
My folks are not stove engineers and to get my gas meter out and getting 240ppm was taking the piss. I threw water on it and it hasn't run since.
Iain328 said:
First & obvious question - is that stove designed to be dual fuel or is it just a woodburner?
It is designed and marketed as dual fuel. Although logs don't come that small. http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/...
NB:- Nothing to do with stovesonline.co.uk
Shoot Blair said:
Iain328 said:
First & obvious question - is that stove designed to be dual fuel or is it just a woodburner?
It is designed and marketed as dual fuel. Although logs don't come that small. http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/...
NB:- Nothing to do with stovesonline.co.uk
Or there are electric ones which are typically £200+
Shoot Blair said:
Iain328 said:
First & obvious question - is that stove designed to be dual fuel or is it just a woodburner?
It is designed and marketed as dual fuel. Although logs don't come that small. http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/...
NB:- Nothing to do with stovesonline.co.uk
You could speak to the guy at Stovesonline, he's very helpful & seems to know his stuff (I think his name is Caspian). He may be able to recommend an installer to come & sort it out. Could be the shortest fix will be a new chimney liner rather than try & clean the old one out.
that link says that it takes 10" logs?
The cut and split stuff I get is around 6"-8" and would go in anything. Larger stuff I cut/split down to size.
Reformed coal is almost certainly not suitable and that could be a significant part of the problem.
Also lots of stoves come as either woodburners or multifuel - I dont know that model but the question about woodburner/multifuel stands.
It looks a botched job. I agree that they need to burn it hard, and it may well be that the flue is blocked, but it shouldnt be leaking cresote like that. Where abouts are they?
looking at the pics the flue pipes are upside down. Female part of the joint should be upwards, male down.
The cut and split stuff I get is around 6"-8" and would go in anything. Larger stuff I cut/split down to size.
Reformed coal is almost certainly not suitable and that could be a significant part of the problem.
Also lots of stoves come as either woodburners or multifuel - I dont know that model but the question about woodburner/multifuel stands.
It looks a botched job. I agree that they need to burn it hard, and it may well be that the flue is blocked, but it shouldnt be leaking cresote like that. Where abouts are they?
looking at the pics the flue pipes are upside down. Female part of the joint should be upwards, male down.
Edited by TooLateForAName on Wednesday 21st October 16:43
Edited by TooLateForAName on Wednesday 21st October 16:47
Thanks for that, I'll put them on to stovesonline.
The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
Shoot Blair said:
Thanks for that, I'll put them on to stovesonline.
The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
pics, report (any local stove shop should write something up) and small claims.The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
Shoot Blair said:
Thanks for that, I'll put them on to stovesonline.
The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
Well, I would say that just giving it "the beans" on start up is not enough. You need to get the whole chimney really, really hot and then keep it hot.The fire has been given very full beans periodically. Usually on startup with the ashtray out for maximum draught, etc.
For £3k, it's a very poor job.
We shall see what engineer man says and then perhaps move forward.
I wonder what to do if a report is damning and the stove shop refuse to acknowledge them in any way.
Thanks for the advice.
The only real question mark over the installation seems to be as to whether the chimney should have been backfilled with insulation. If it wasn't that may now be a blessing because at least you can get the liner out to replace it!
I also don't think there is any form of regulation around fitting these things - there is no CORGI equivalent. and therefore nothing to be gained really. All the installer is going to say is that the stove hasn't been burned hot enough for long enough - and basically they'd be right!
I would just move on & get a sensible installer round to look at it it & put it right. As above, look at insulating the flu in the room & possibly backfilling the chimney with insulation as well and then make sure the thing is burned hot enough.
I'm sorry, all the talk about the OPs parents may not be burning stuff hot enough is one thing but that looks terrible. We have a woodburner fitted (without backboiler) and had the chimney set by a separate crew for the woodburner. They installed a double walled 5" flue, a register plate at the bottom, a sealed plate at the top, insulated filled the gap between the flue and the chimney and put a cowl on. The stove have a custom fitted link pipe between the stove top and the register plate and definitely didn't need any welding. The stove guys even painted the cut edges on the link pipe so it all looed good. No leaks.
Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
OK, to put it bluntly, the thing was periodically run at full throttle until the water in the sodding great big unheated tanks actually boiled. Convection actually caused the water in the attic based header tank to boil as well. Like a kettle. So much so that condensate ran down the inside of the slates.
They ran it up to maximum temperature and held it there periodically.
No half measures.
They acted upon every piece of limited advice given to them.
They ran it up to maximum temperature and held it there periodically.
No half measures.
They acted upon every piece of limited advice given to them.
Dr_Rick said:
I'm sorry, all the talk about the OPs parents may not be burning stuff hot enough is one thing but that looks terrible. We have a woodburner fitted (without backboiler) and had the chimney set by a separate crew for the woodburner. They installed a double walled 5" flue, a register plate at the bottom, a sealed plate at the top, insulated filled the gap between the flue and the chimney and put a cowl on. The stove have a custom fitted link pipe between the stove top and the register plate and definitely didn't need any welding. The stove guys even painted the cut edges on the link pipe so it all looed good. No leaks.
Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
HETAS is the body that regulates. Also this should have had building regs.Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
Shoot Blair said:
OK, to put it bluntly, the thing was periodically run at full throttle until the water in the sodding great big unheated tanks actually boiled. Convection actually caused the water in the attic based header tank to boil as well. Like a kettle. So much so that condensate ran down the inside of the slates.
They ran it up to maximum temperature and held it there periodically.
No half measures.
They acted upon every piece of limited advice given to them.
Fair enough - but there is still unlikely to be any comeback on these people because there is no formal registration/licensing for fitting these things(unlike CORGI or whatever its now called for the gas people).They ran it up to maximum temperature and held it there periodically.
No half measures.
They acted upon every piece of limited advice given to them.
Best you could probably do would be trading standards & frankly I think you'd be banging your head against a brick wall. I didn't mean to imply that the thing was either "right", "pretty" or "acceptable" - but the harsh reality on this is it will be quicker and less expensive to move on & get someone in to do it right.
Maybe after its fixed you could try trading standards/small claims etc etc but it will take time & money to do it. Besides that when you are dealing with a piece of kit who's operation is an imprecise science & where there are many variables (not least of which is the fuel used) you really will be pushing water uphill with this.
One route you might try is to talk to the stove manufacturer. They may be interested to know who is fitting their kit (badly) but I doubt they will do much about it.
TooLateForAName said:
Dr_Rick said:
I'm sorry, all the talk about the OPs parents may not be burning stuff hot enough is one thing but that looks terrible. We have a woodburner fitted (without backboiler) and had the chimney set by a separate crew for the woodburner. They installed a double walled 5" flue, a register plate at the bottom, a sealed plate at the top, insulated filled the gap between the flue and the chimney and put a cowl on. The stove have a custom fitted link pipe between the stove top and the register plate and definitely didn't need any welding. The stove guys even painted the cut edges on the link pipe so it all looed good. No leaks.
Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
HETAS is the body that regulates. Also this should have had building regs.Surely these guys are supposed to be registered somewhere that they're competent! I'd be shocked if I came home to find tradesmen had done that, and there's no way I'd pay them. Sorry, that's not acceptable. If they're still trading they should be shut down. Only problem is that you say it was installed in 2005, that's a long time to be living with something that doesn't work; I'd have dealt with it earlier. Perhaps get CAB involved. Thats dangerous (as you've said).
Dr Rick
Its obviously a crap job but its a pretty unregulated industry at the moment so there is unlikely to be any recourse. Added to that, this job was also originally done in 2005
Edited to add :
Seems like it is necessary to notify building control
From the HETAS website:
"Most installations of solid fuel and wood biomass appliances and systems are subject to the requirements of Building Regulations and are notifiable to the Local Authority in your area by law. HETAS registered installers can self-certificate their work thus avoiding the need for costly and time consuming Building Notice applications to the local Building Control Department."
Whether that was the case in 2005 , you'd have to ask HETAS.
Edited by Iain328 on Wednesday 21st October 17:54
^- hetas or building regs dept 
If not hetas installed, it MUST be signed off by bco. I'd possibly run it past them off the record to start with, just to see what the council would recommend (apart from condemning it) - your bco may know someone local who knows what he's doing.
Without going into it too much, as I don't know much about traditional open vented back boilers, pumped back boilers need regulating, or they'll just cool the burn down too much and create tarring. Yours sounds gravity fed (no pump?). You need very specific advice on that, plus the chimney may need lining then backfilling to stop it cooling down and not drawing enough - but I'm guessing. Navitron forum would be a good place to start on the internet, or a local reputable stove shop who sell back boilered stoves, with their own installers. General stove installers won't be enough - you need people with definite 100% back boiler experience.
If your 'people' were seriously hetas approved (which I doubt, if the flue has been installed upside down) I'd go to hetas, with pics, and suggest they get someone else there NOW before either someone dies of carbon monoxide poisoning or the national press are contacted. Or both. If hetas have really been useless so far, I'd go at them again, all guns blazing, with pics and possibly take legal advice or at least threaten hetas with it. That stove's a death trap, something hetas are supposed to be there to prevent.
I suspect the installers are more likely to be registered blind than registered as heating engineers.
Eta again.. yes, the straight section and elbow at least are upside down - the door to rod the flue should be under the elbow not above it
And, the system cannot be gravity-fed as the top pipe leaving the stove actually runs downhill right to left = no gravity flow. That pipework is wrong. There must be a pump. There should be a heat dump that doesn't need to flow uphill, maybe extra pipework hidden in the pic? That is not a safe installation.
If not hetas installed, it MUST be signed off by bco. I'd possibly run it past them off the record to start with, just to see what the council would recommend (apart from condemning it) - your bco may know someone local who knows what he's doing.
Without going into it too much, as I don't know much about traditional open vented back boilers, pumped back boilers need regulating, or they'll just cool the burn down too much and create tarring. Yours sounds gravity fed (no pump?). You need very specific advice on that, plus the chimney may need lining then backfilling to stop it cooling down and not drawing enough - but I'm guessing. Navitron forum would be a good place to start on the internet, or a local reputable stove shop who sell back boilered stoves, with their own installers. General stove installers won't be enough - you need people with definite 100% back boiler experience.
If your 'people' were seriously hetas approved (which I doubt, if the flue has been installed upside down) I'd go to hetas, with pics, and suggest they get someone else there NOW before either someone dies of carbon monoxide poisoning or the national press are contacted. Or both. If hetas have really been useless so far, I'd go at them again, all guns blazing, with pics and possibly take legal advice or at least threaten hetas with it. That stove's a death trap, something hetas are supposed to be there to prevent.
I suspect the installers are more likely to be registered blind than registered as heating engineers.
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 21st October 17:57
Eta again.. yes, the straight section and elbow at least are upside down - the door to rod the flue should be under the elbow not above it
And, the system cannot be gravity-fed as the top pipe leaving the stove actually runs downhill right to left = no gravity flow. That pipework is wrong. There must be a pump. There should be a heat dump that doesn't need to flow uphill, maybe extra pipework hidden in the pic? That is not a safe installation.
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 21st October 18:04
They are HETAS registered now.
Do you know any good legal people? As far as I can tell, 240ppm CO is totally unacceptable (in the room) and to sell people equipment which has been seriously maintained above expected standards is totally unacceptable.
When I was a chemist, the risk assessments for coal tar were pretty severe, as was strong sulphuric acid. CO and SO2 go without saying.
I have no qualms about flashing it up and getting the gas meter out. The acceptable background is 50ppm and it reached 240ppm pretty quick. That was also with the room doors open.
As far as I'm concerned, they've put the folks lives at risk, which is demonstratable by a calibrated meter, the installation is bungled in several ways which are even obvious to a partially intelligent layman. It's time these idiots got called to account for their poor practice, before someone snuffs it.
NB:- I gather there is a person in the area with a similar story, I also have their contact details.
I agree with the corgi sentiment, there may be no regulating body, but you can't just install potentially deadly kit in someone's house as a part of your business.
Do you know any good legal people? As far as I can tell, 240ppm CO is totally unacceptable (in the room) and to sell people equipment which has been seriously maintained above expected standards is totally unacceptable.
When I was a chemist, the risk assessments for coal tar were pretty severe, as was strong sulphuric acid. CO and SO2 go without saying.
I have no qualms about flashing it up and getting the gas meter out. The acceptable background is 50ppm and it reached 240ppm pretty quick. That was also with the room doors open.
As far as I'm concerned, they've put the folks lives at risk, which is demonstratable by a calibrated meter, the installation is bungled in several ways which are even obvious to a partially intelligent layman. It's time these idiots got called to account for their poor practice, before someone snuffs it.
NB:- I gather there is a person in the area with a similar story, I also have their contact details.
I agree with the corgi sentiment, there may be no regulating body, but you can't just install potentially deadly kit in someone's house as a part of your business.
Do you have paperwork, receipts, any letterheaded letters from them?
Proof of installation basically.
It's a whole level above the usual rogue-traders-left-my-conservatory-leaking - these people could kill someone.
But you'll need a paper trail of some sort to prove you've told them about the faults etc - or they could deny even fitting it.
No idea about levels of pollution, but a back boiler going bang can take the side of your house out. Any more details about the water side of it - those pipes are 28mm right?
Proof of installation basically.
It's a whole level above the usual rogue-traders-left-my-conservatory-leaking - these people could kill someone.
But you'll need a paper trail of some sort to prove you've told them about the faults etc - or they could deny even fitting it.
No idea about levels of pollution, but a back boiler going bang can take the side of your house out. Any more details about the water side of it - those pipes are 28mm right?
The CO reading is almost certainly due to a blocked flue and you may be responsible for that beause of the fuel being used. You need to check that.
It is a botched install, and I would be horrified that HETAS are not showing interest. Get someone in to look at it. Communications with HETAS in writing so that you can go public and demonstrate a crap attitude.
Problem is that it is a 4 year old install, should have been escalated a long time ago.
It is a botched install, and I would be horrified that HETAS are not showing interest. Get someone in to look at it. Communications with HETAS in writing so that you can go public and demonstrate a crap attitude.
Problem is that it is a 4 year old install, should have been escalated a long time ago.
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