Discussion
I can't value it; and neither can anyone else unless they are actually putting their hand in their pocket to buy a car which is available.
Normally "valuing" something means assessing its worth in the market place. However, for a car which is like no other, except perhaps for 6(?) in the UK, there is no active market. Therefore the only way is as you suggest; it's worth what someone will pay for it at the moment a sale takes place.
When there is no market to compare with, individual sale prices will vary a lot, for each sale will start from scratch and the fixing of the transaction price will only depend on the willingness of the seller to sell, and the buyer to buy.
I would guess that apart from condition; the value will be effected by how original the car is, since so much of it was special.
Normally "valuing" something means assessing its worth in the market place. However, for a car which is like no other, except perhaps for 6(?) in the UK, there is no active market. Therefore the only way is as you suggest; it's worth what someone will pay for it at the moment a sale takes place.
When there is no market to compare with, individual sale prices will vary a lot, for each sale will start from scratch and the fixing of the transaction price will only depend on the willingness of the seller to sell, and the buyer to buy.
I would guess that apart from condition; the value will be effected by how original the car is, since so much of it was special.
Paul Drawmer said:
However, for a car which is like no other, except perhaps for 6(?) in the UK...
There are 3 in the UK, to the best of my knowledge. Mine is one of them - the magazine road test and motorshow car S355XWP (always open to offers 
), there's another in Northamptonshire (T635WAD) - whose owner, Paul Bayes, intends to be buried in it, I think - and 681 HOT for sale in Somerset at present, which is presumably the reason the OP is asking the question.Six were built in total. Two are definitely in Japan, and one was reputedly destroyed in a testing accident at Thruxton, though I have no evidence beyond heresay to confirm this.
I know what I paid for mine, and how much the factory and Paul Matty Sports Cars (who sold 681 HOT) were asking when they last came on the open market, but that information is rather academic since, as you'd expect for such a rare car, they are appreciating... those of us who hold the commodity are not desperate to sell, hence are unlikely to do so for a loss
.How fast they will appreciate depends very much on how keen the owners are to sell at any given moment in time, balanced against how much interest there is from people with the financial wherewithal to purchase.
To the OP: if there's anything else you want to know about the FW, ask away - I'll do my best to give an honest answer.
Sam_68 said:
Paul Drawmer said:
However, for a car which is like no other, except perhaps for 6(?) in the UK...
There are 3 in the UK, to the best of my knowledge. Mine is one of them - the magazine road test and motorshow car S355XWP (always open to offers ), there's another in Northamptonshire (T635WAD) - whose owner, Paul Bayes, intends to be buried in it, I think - and 681 HOT for sale in Somerset at present, which is presumably the reason the OP is asking the question.Six were built in total. Two are definitely in Japan, and one was reputedly destroyed in a testing accident at Thruxton, though I have no evidence beyond heresay to confirm this.
I know what I paid for mine, and how much the factory and Paul Matty Sports Cars (who sold 681 HOT) were asking when they last came on the open market, but that information is rather academic since, as you'd expect for such a rare car, they are appreciating... those of us who hold the commodity are not desperate to sell, hence are unlikely to do so for a loss
.How fast they will appreciate depends very much on how keen the owners are to sell at any given moment in time, balanced against how much interest there is from people with the financial wherewithal to purchase.
To the OP: if there's anything else you want to know about the FW, ask away - I'll do my best to give an honest answer.
Are there any problems with the cars? Who is has the facilites/ability to service and maintain these cars correctly?
steve westlake
07775512486
stevewestlake@ccandc.ltd.uk
sportquattro_0 said:
How much would you take for yours? S355XWP
I'd probably be looking for around £19K for mine. To be fair 681 HOT is in slightly better condition than mine (its had track use only, whereas mine has a bit of gravel rash and chipped/flaked paint on suspension components through road use) and has a higher spec engine. Conversely, though, it doesn't have my cars history, is less original (dashboard & rollover bar are non-'standard') and has glass fibre body panels (as did all the others, I believe - mine was supposedly the only one manufactured with carbon fibre bonnet/rear bodywork as well as carbon fibre monocoque). sportquattro_0 said:
Are there any problems with the cars?
I've not encountered anything major in my 2 years of ownership and use. Some of the detailing could have been improved, but the fundamental design seems to have been pretty much right straight out of the box (hardly surprising, given a designer of Martin Ogilvie's calibre!), and the factory did undertake proper development work at the time.The only problems I've had are:
- Cracked sump; the standard cast Land Rover Discovery wet sump has very little clearance. Not a problem if you are only intending track use, like Danny, and I've solved the issue on my car by fitting a (whisper it) Caterham low-line allow sump pan.
- Exhaust manifold cracks (welded up for a tenner by my local exhaust specialist).
- Check the wheels regularly; They are ultra-lightweight split-rims, designed specially for the car (Image wheels still have the patterns for the billet centres, if you need them). One of the spares I got with my car had some signs of cracks developing to the wheel centre. Ironically, this is a well-known problem with the (completely different) special wheels on the Caterham R500, too.
It's a bit stiff for my taste for road use (I've just removed the ARB's on my car to soften it up a bit), but having said that, I have a preference for fairly supple suspension on these sorts of cars and I've given a ride to a Westfield Megabird owner who expressed the opinion that the ride was pretty good.
sportquattro_0 said:
Who is has the facilites/ability to service and maintain these cars correctly?
It's a pretty simple, straightforward car, to be honest, so anyone who you'd trust to work on a normal K-series Seven will be able to maintain an FW400. I do my own maintenance. The only exception might be considered to be the Hewland transaxle, which you might want to have serviced by Hewland or one of their agents, but having said that the 'box is intended to be maintained by any amateur race mechanic and the manuals are available for free download on Hewland's web site. The box is designed to be partially stripped in a race paddock to swap ratios round, remember, so it's not rocket science even compared to a mainstream production car gearbox.You may have a bit of detective work to identify components (things like ball joints/bushes, brake discs, bearings) when the time comes to replace them. I bought up all the factory spares (not much!) and the memory of the people involved is getting a bit hazy about the source of some components, but nothing insurmountable.
The only major issue would be if you damaged the carbon fibre tub. Martin Ogilvie assures me that it's a simple job to cut out the damaged section and bond in a new one, but you'd need a specialist. He gave me the contact details of the guys who actually built the tubs in the first place, though, if the worst comes to the worst (like Martin himself, they're ex-Lotus men from over your way, in Norfolk, as it happens).
Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 25th October 14:08
singlecoil said:
If chummy turns it down, ask him to name his price.
Indeed. Personally, I've always thought that putting 'offers' is the worst possible approach to advertising a car for sale. It seems particularly odd when Danny has only recently bought the car, therefore knows exactly what he considers its value to be.
Each to their own, though... presumably he's hoping he will be lucky and someone will offer him a price that represents a quick profit, and good luck to him if that's the case!
Sam_68 said:
singlecoil said:
If chummy turns it down, ask him to name his price.
Indeed. Personally, I've always thought that putting 'offers' is the worst possible approach to advertising a car for sale. It seems particularly odd when Danny has only recently bought the car, therefore knows exactly what he considers its value to be.
Each to their own, though... presumably he's hoping he will be lucky and someone will offer him a price that represents a quick profit, and good luck to him if that's the case!
matt frost said:
Why are they so rare?
I think a combination of:- too much money when new (£40K)
- Detailing wasn't 'special' enough for a £40K car (the basic design is a work of art, but some stuff like the ARB's , headlamp and cyclewing brackets, etc., are a bit amateurish.
- Overtaken by the BEC craze - you can get nearly the same performance out of a Megabusa for virtually half the cost.
- Not profitable to build (rumour has it that after the first batch of tubs, the supplier said they couldn't possibly accept a repeat order without seriously hiking the price, which would have put the overall price of the car up still further).
- Too extreme for road use, for most people. The suspension is set up for track use (not insurmountable, obviously), its simply too quick to come close to being able to exploit on the road, 95% of the time and the gearbox isn't the friendliest thing to use if you're just pottering; it's tough and fast, but very noisy and the change is a bit clonky unless you're banging it through very quickly.
matt frost said:
I always knew about them and remember looking at one in the brochure when I was at Westfield and thinking 'that must be fast'...
They are... silly, stupid fast for road use! 
Mine has a non-VHPD engine giving 'only' about 175bhp, but its still ludicrously quick. Given the recent developments in K-series tuning, a 400 kilo FW400 with a 240bhp K-series and a JFR sequential replacing the old LD200 transaxle would make a current R500 look a bit silly.
It's a credit to the car, though, that it's not the least bit scary - it always feels very predictable and responsive.
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 26th October 13:33
sam
"Mine has a non-VHPD engine giving 'only' about 175bhp, but its still ludicrously quick. Given the recent developments in K-series tuning, a 400 kilo FW400 with a 240bhp K-series and a JFR sequential replacing the old LD200 transaxle would make a current R500 look a bit silly."
Whats the cost of doing that upgrade?
"Mine has a non-VHPD engine giving 'only' about 175bhp, but its still ludicrously quick. Given the recent developments in K-series tuning, a 400 kilo FW400 with a 240bhp K-series and a JFR sequential replacing the old LD200 transaxle would make a current R500 look a bit silly."
Whats the cost of doing that upgrade?
sportquattro_0 said:
Whats the cost of doing that upgrade?
It ain't cheap!Minister would charge you £10,750+VAT according to their website, for a 240bhp K-series. I suspect that DVA Power would be able to deliver the same results rather cheaper, but you'd still be looking at an engine with forged steel crank and conrods and a lot of other work.
Sensible upgrade to mine would be to add throttle bodies, which would give close to 200bhp for about £1,500 (the engine is fairly well modified already, but is still running a modified VVC single plenum)
The JFR gearbox is £5,828+VAT, and although it's dimensionally a straight swap for the LD, there's still a little bit of installation work to do on top of that.
In both cases you could recover some of the cost by selling the old engine/box, of course.
Personally, I've no intention of seeking more power - the car has plenty for me already - but I'll probably do the sequential conversion if I keep it long enough.
I wouldn't suggest either as a cost-effective upgrade to one of the existing cars, though; £15K's worth of new engine and box wouldn't be reflected in a £15K increase in value (though the two Japanese cars were recently advertised for sale at the equivalent of £36/£40K, so you could always export to the Land of the Rising Sun!).
I was more speculating on the 'what if' of Westfield doing another production run, taking advantage of recent advances, to whup the current R500's ass.
Sam_68 said:
matt frost said:
Why are they so rare?
I think a combination of:- too much money when new (£40K)
- Detailing wasn't 'special' enough for a £40K car (the basic design is a work of art, but some stuff like the ARB's , headlamp and cyclewing brackets, etc., are a bit amateurish.
- Overtaken by the BEC craze - you can get nearly the same performance out of a Megabusa for virtually half the cost.
- Not profitable to build (rumour has it that after the first batch of tubs, the supplier said they couldn't possibly accept a repeat order without seriously hiking the price, which would have put the overall price of the car up still further).
- Too extreme for road use, for most people. The suspension is set up for track use (not insurmountable, obviously), its simply too quick to come close to being able to exploit on the road, 95% of the time and the gearbox isn't the friendliest thing to use if you're just pottering; it's tough and fast, but very noisy and the change is a bit clonky unless you're banging it through very quickly.
matt frost said:
I always knew about them and remember looking at one in the brochure when I was at Westfield and thinking 'that must be fast'...
They are... silly, stupid fast for road use! Mine has a non-VHPD engine giving 'only' about 175bhp, but its still ludicrously quick. Given the recent developments in K-series tuning, a 400 kilo FW400 with a 240bhp K-series and a JFR sequential replacing the old LD200 transaxle would make a current R500 look a bit silly.
It's a credit to the car, though, that it's not the least bit scary - it always feels very predictable and responsive.
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 26th October 13:33
One more thing, is it actually a genuine 400kg? Westfield claim the Megabusa at 430kg but as every owner knows it is around 490-500kg when fully built and 'wet'. They may well have got one to 430kg without any fluids, a dry sump and maybe without a reverse box, but any genuine Megabusa seems alot more than they claim, 'dry' or not.
Is 400 just a dry weight or is it a bit exaggerated? Have you ever weighed yours/know of any owner who has had theirs weighed? Also, what did they do to get the car so light? Apparently Westfield have a big options list not on the options list such as lightweight bodywork, I imagine that is the first thing?
matt frost said:
Westfield don't/can't really offer too much factory for parts etc now?
No; I bought up all the spares they had left.With the exception of the monocoque, however, there's very little on the car that isn't either an of-the-shelf component (eg. engine, gearbox, steering rack) or couldn't easily be fabricated as a replacment (eg. wishbones, though I've got a full spare set of those).
I think Westfield still have the body moulds.
The only things I can think of that would be really costly to replicate would be the alloy uprights and the cast nose piece for the gearbox, which provides intermediate support for the propshaft.
matt frost said:
One more thing, is it actually a genuine 400kg?
No, it's not. Mine was weighed for the AutoCar road test and came in at 433kg wet and fuelled. As previously mentioned, mine is the only one with carbon bodywork (I lifted the bonnet of 681 HOT, recently, and was surprised how much heavier it was than mine, but I couldn't give you an exact figure). It's also had a braced, steel roll-over bar fitted later(mine is alloy), which will add a bit more. I'd be surprised if 681 HOT comes in at less than 450 kilos, wet.The only obvious items where you could lose extra weight on mine would be the seats, which weigh a ton (metaphorically!), 'cos being the factory demonstrator they're heavy-duty items fitted with adjustable steel subframes. You could probably save 10 kilos there. I've also removed the ARB's (say 3-4 kg?) and a few other irrelevant bits, but there's still no realistic way you'd get it down to 400 kilos wet.
I think the intention with 'production' models was to simplify the mouldings - the first run were 'pre-production' models, really, and are made up of lots of sections bonded together - which should have certainly made a dry weight of 400 kilos possible, but I don't know about wet.
matt frost said:
What did they do to get the car so light?
Almost everything! Obviously the tub is much lighter than a panelled spaceframe; the K-series engine and Hewland gearbox are as light as they come for a car engine; wheels are specially designed and very light (and only 3-stud fixing); lightweight racing battery; lightweight flywheel and single-plate Tilton sintered clutch, special lighweight alloy hubs (about half the weight of the 'lightweight' alloy hubs that Westfield will sell you for one of their normal cars), alloy uprights, fairly light, non-vented discs and alloy sliding calipers (though there would be a bit more weight you could get off with alloy bells and floating discs).
DH2 said:
Sam_68 said:
I've given a ride to a Westfield Megabird owner who expressed the opinion that the ride was pretty good.
That's now a former Megabird owner...
DH2
Have you got your hearing back yet?
Anything you'd care to add as an impartial observer?
Sam_68 said:
Have you got your hearing back yet?
Anything you'd care to add as an impartial observer?
Yeah the hearing survived the onslaught, thankfully Anything you'd care to add as an impartial observer?
OK, where to start... well I would firstly pretty much agree with everything that has been said so far. The keen-eyed regular classified scourer (that would be me then) will know that the car was previously advertised with an asking price - that's all I'll say about that!
They are, as you say, a very quick and capable car. Also a very special piece of Westfield and se7ening history. Something tells me the concept will be re-visited before too long, as I would guess that the cost effectiveness of producing the tub might have come down a bit in 10 years?
The gearbox was the clincher for me. It's a race box, so it's clunky and noisy... far more so than my BEC was. In the end, it wasn't something I could live with for the use I wanted from the car, I was looking for something I could get more use out of than my Megabird, rather than less! For a track car, or the odd mad road blat, it would be very hard to beat for the money, but for regular longer distance road-use, I don't think I could have lived with the 'box.
I still love the car, it's amazing, and if I were in the market for a track car, it probably wouldn't still be for sale. I hope the car goes to someone who appreciates what it is...
DH2
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