The Dreaded Lisbon Treaty - WTF is it?
The Dreaded Lisbon Treaty - WTF is it?
Author
Discussion

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Right,

Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.

So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.

So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....

Mclovin

1,679 posts

215 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
its a train that runs on the gravy line....it will last about 20 years then europe will be put back to how it was.....

Puggit

49,193 posts

265 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
We've had this thread a few times.

What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).

There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Puggit said:
We've had this thread a few times.

What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).

There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.
Congrats on 18k posts btw!

I am worried, but no-one can define how worried to get. Is a little more worried, a lot more worried, or is it stock up on bullets and beans time. Is it just 5% more of the same, or a total hand-over of powers?

That's the point, these are all soundbites - what's it actually mean?

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,

Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.

So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.

So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).

I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess frown
But if no-one takes time to read it, it may be that it's actually good. It could also mean that I have to allow Romanian refugees to squat on my land - I just don't know. But no-one else seems to either but they all say burn Parliament for thinking about it....

WTF!

Puggit

49,193 posts

265 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
18k forgettable posts wink

Wiki is probably the most palatable resume of the EU Constitution Treaty of Lisbon.

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

234 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
A quick google search turned up the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...hehe

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...


This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm


IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish furious

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...hehe

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...


This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm


IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish furious

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
jshell said:
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,

Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.

So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.

So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).

I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess frown
But if no-one takes time to read it, it may be that it's actually good. It could also mean that I have to allow Romanian refugees to squat on my land - I just don't know. But no-one else seems to either but they all say burn Parliament for thinking about it....

WTF!
Dont see it that way most are saying Burn parliament for not giving us the democratic right to decide on whether we want the damned thing (as was committed to in their manifestos). A simple name change and massaging of the text to claim its NOT the cosntitution just simply wont wash, thats like claiming a duck house on expenses and calling it a garden feature no one would do that right........oh wait!
Aye, but my point in this thread is that most want to vote it down on priciple rather than content as they don't have a fking clue what it really says.... And that's not healthy democracy in action.

Of course, neither is denying a referendum!

collateral

7,238 posts

235 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
I'm glad someone asked this. Every time it comes up on the news I find myself yelling 'But what IS it?!?' No-one's actually told us, we just hear loads of OMGEUROPEWTF!!11!

Odie

4,187 posts

199 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
jshell said:
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,

Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.

So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.

So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).

I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess frown
But if no-one takes time to read it, it may be that it's actually good. It could also mean that I have to allow Romanian refugees to squat on my land - I just don't know. But no-one else seems to either but they all say burn Parliament for thinking about it....

WTF!
Dont see it that way most are saying Burn parliament for not giving us the democratic right to decide on whether we want the damned thing (as was committed to in their manifestos). A simple name change and massaging of the text to claim its NOT the cosntitution just simply wont wash, thats like claiming a duck house on expenses and calling it a garden feature no one would do that right........oh wait!
Even if we did get a vote on it, the situation would arise like it did in ireland were if you ask the question and dont get the answer you want, you ask the question again.

Im still waiting for them to ask the question again in manchester about the congestion charge (or they will probably just sneak it in)..

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

234 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
jshell said:
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...hehe

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...


This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm


IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish furious

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...
Ahh sorry, simplified version below smile


1. Creation of EU constitution, which by definition overrides any member countries constitution.
2. Creation of head of state & foreign secretary: making the EU one federal state
3. Removal of Vetoes currently enjoyed by some EU countries: we can no longer say "no the UK is not signing up to that law", if the majority say yes, it happens.
4. EU Central bank: now an EU institution,
5. Agricultural resources to be shared: i.e. any fishing ground can be fished by any country
6. Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union: signing the UK up to EU law in its entirety, winky negotiated a “protocol” that would allow us to opt out, however he also signed away all our rights to veto laws, so his protocols have as much validity as Chamberlains agreements with Hitler in 1939!

I know that my post is over simplified, it doesn’t contain all the facts and comes from somebody who opposes this treaty purely on the grounds of “you promised me a vote, so I fkin want to vote, what are you hiding from you traitorous Scottish tts”


Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 11:05

RichardD

3,608 posts

262 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
I don't know what everyone is worried about.

It is just the foundation for European socialism.

Which is a stepping stone toward global communism.

jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
AndrewW-G said:
jshell said:
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...hehe

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...


This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm


IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish furious

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...
Ahh sorry, simplified version below smile


1. Creation of EU constitution, which by definition overrides any member countries constitution.
2. Creation of head of state & foreign secretary: making the EU one federal state
3. Removal of Vetoes currently enjoyed by some EU countries: we can no longer say no the UK is not signing up to that law, if the majority say yes, it happens.
4. EU Central bank: now an EU institution,
5. Agricultural resources to be shared: i.e. any fishing ground can be fished by any country
6. Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union: signing the UK up to EU law in its entirety, winky negotiated a “protocol” that would allow us to opt out, however he also signed away all our rights to veto laws, so his protocols have as much validity as Chamberlains agreements with Hitler in 1939!

I know that my post is over simplified, it doesn’t contain all the facts and comes from somebody who opposes this treaty purely on the grounds of “you promised me a vote, so I fkin want to vote, what are you hiding from your traitorous Scottish tts”
Cheers!

So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?

FourWheelDrift

91,108 posts

301 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
RichardD said:
It is just the foundation for European socialism.

Which is a stepping stone toward global communism.
Socialism is just Communism with a smile.

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

234 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
Yes a terrible idea, we'd be taking the powers from people who are supposed to have our best interests at heart (even if they need the odd kick to remind them) and giving them to people who certainly do not.

Jasandjules

71,262 posts

246 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
You have much to learn young skywalker.

The corruption within the EU (as in the Commission) is so bad that the auditors refuse to sign off the accounts, and have done so for over 10 years now.

The corruption within many EU Countries' Govts makes our lot look like honest John.

TEKNOPUG

19,895 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
The Queen has a moral obligation as head of state to call up the army (who swear allegiance to her, not the government) and get a military coup up and running.



Oh wait, all the troops have been sent thousands of miles away to kill some shepherds….


Jasandjules

71,262 posts

246 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
Oh come on its not like they are that bad you will be telling me next that the Italian Prime minister is facing corruption charges...............oh wait smile
No, I wouldn't say that. Nor would I say that anyone who faced the possibility of any sort of criminal investigation might use their media power/company to attempt to dig the dirt on any judicial decision maker in any way shape or form.......


jshell

Original Poster:

11,557 posts

222 months

Friday 30th October 2009
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
You have much to learn young skywalker.

The corruption within the EU (as in the Commission) is so bad that the auditors refuse to sign off the accounts, and have done so for over 10 years now.

The corruption within many EU Countries' Govts makes our lot look like honest John.
No, I do realise that, and I work in a place where corruption is th enorm in business. I really just wanted someone to give a potted summary of the whole thing as if I have to research MMGW, Lisbon Treaty, MP's expenses etc, etc it's too much!