The Dreaded Lisbon Treaty - WTF is it?
Discussion
Right,
Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
We've had this thread a few times.
What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).
There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.
What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).
There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.
Puggit said:
We've had this thread a few times.
What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).
There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.
Congrats on 18k posts btw!What the Lisbon treaty allows is an unelected president and unelected foreign minister (who has the right to dictate OUR foreign policy).
There's other stuff in there too to help with a larger EU - but if the above line doesn't get you worried then you don't need to worry about the rest of it.
I am worried, but no-one can define how worried to get. Is a little more worried, a lot more worried, or is it stock up on bullets and beans time. Is it just 5% more of the same, or a total hand-over of powers?
That's the point, these are all soundbites - what's it actually mean?
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,
Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess

WTF!
A quick google search turned up the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...
http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...
http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29
Guam said:
jshell said:
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,
Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess

WTF!

Of course, neither is denying a referendum!
Guam said:
jshell said:
Guam said:
jshell said:
Right,
Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
Thats the whole issue in a nutshell nobody really knows the origional costitution which died a death was at least published and many countries in europe the voters were actually sent a copy (except here of course).Many folks bang on about the Lisbon Treaty, we've been sold down the river, it's undemocratic, we need a referendum, Winky's done it again, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum! I know that's the PH way, but hey, I'm interested.
So, who actually KNOWS what it does for and against us? I don't. I tried searching for details and my mind went numb with what I found.
So, cards on table time, who can actually give us the pro's and con's so I (and hopefully others) can take a balanced view without just jumping on a bandwagon and saying it's giving away all of our powers to unelected bureaucrats....
I guess there may be a published copy on a govt website somewhere but as we werent given the promised vote on this thing reading it is an acadmeic excercise I guess

WTF!
Im still waiting for them to ask the question again in manchester about the congestion charge (or they will probably just sneak it in)..
jshell said:
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...
http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29

1. Creation of EU constitution, which by definition overrides any member countries constitution.
2. Creation of head of state & foreign secretary: making the EU one federal state
3. Removal of Vetoes currently enjoyed by some EU countries: we can no longer say "no the UK is not signing up to that law", if the majority say yes, it happens.
4. EU Central bank: now an EU institution,
5. Agricultural resources to be shared: i.e. any fishing ground can be fished by any country
6. Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union: signing the UK up to EU law in its entirety, winky negotiated a “protocol” that would allow us to opt out, however he also signed away all our rights to veto laws, so his protocols have as much validity as Chamberlains agreements with Hitler in 1939!
I know that my post is over simplified, it doesn’t contain all the facts and comes from somebody who opposes this treaty purely on the grounds of “you promised me a vote, so I f


Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 11:05
AndrewW-G said:
jshell said:
AndrewW-G said:
A quick google search turned up the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...
http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish
And a quick flash over that lot starts to melt my brain...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580750/The...
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/institution...

http://howardh.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/lisbon-tre...
This one is from the EU themselves and should be taken with a big pinch of salt
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm
IMHO, one of the things that make it so important for us to have a referendum on this, is labours refusal to do so. In the 2005 labour party manifesto, it clearly states that if returned to power, the labour party would hold a referendum on this very subject, the idiots believed it and now were about to watch any hope of democracy vanish

Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 30th October 10:29

1. Creation of EU constitution, which by definition overrides any member countries constitution.
2. Creation of head of state & foreign secretary: making the EU one federal state
3. Removal of Vetoes currently enjoyed by some EU countries: we can no longer say no the UK is not signing up to that law, if the majority say yes, it happens.
4. EU Central bank: now an EU institution,
5. Agricultural resources to be shared: i.e. any fishing ground can be fished by any country
6. Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union: signing the UK up to EU law in its entirety, winky negotiated a “protocol” that would allow us to opt out, however he also signed away all our rights to veto laws, so his protocols have as much validity as Chamberlains agreements with Hitler in 1939!
I know that my post is over simplified, it doesn’t contain all the facts and comes from somebody who opposes this treaty purely on the grounds of “you promised me a vote, so I f


So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
Yes a terrible idea, we'd be taking the powers from people who are supposed to have our best interests at heart (even if they need the odd kick to remind them) and giving them to people who certainly do not. jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
You have much to learn young skywalker.The corruption within the EU (as in the Commission) is so bad that the auditors refuse to sign off the accounts, and have done so for over 10 years now.
The corruption within many EU Countries' Govts makes our lot look like honest John.
Guam said:
Oh come on its not like they are that bad you will be telling me next that the Italian Prime minister is facing corruption charges...............oh wait 
No, I wouldn't say that. Nor would I say that anyone who faced the possibility of any sort of criminal investigation might use their media power/company to attempt to dig the dirt on any judicial decision maker in any way shape or form....... 
Jasandjules said:
jshell said:
So given that we're always saying we're jealous of how other European countries act, is it really a bad thing to remove some powers from our corrupt and rotten bunch?
You have much to learn young skywalker.The corruption within the EU (as in the Commission) is so bad that the auditors refuse to sign off the accounts, and have done so for over 10 years now.
The corruption within many EU Countries' Govts makes our lot look like honest John.
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