The Great Escape: The Reckoning C4 21.00 2nd November
Discussion
We have seen the film a few times so this looks interesting..
Monday 02 November
9:00pm - 10:00pm
Channel 4
There can't be many people who haven't seen the 1963 Hollywood film The Great Escape, starring Steve McQueen - it was always on TV at Christmas. However, it was a highly glamorised version of how 76 Allied airmen really did escape from a PoW camp deep in Nazi Germany in 1944. This engrossing documentary tells the story of that audacious escape and its shocking consequences. Only three men made it back home, while 50 were caught and executed by the Gestapo in defiance of the Geneva Convention, which stated that attempted escape by PoWs was a disciplinary offence punishable by 30 days in solitary confinement. So appalling was this to postwar Britain that Frank McKenna, a former policeman, ended up spending years painstakingly tracking down the perpetrators in order to deliver "exemplary justice". The reconstructions are a shade overdone, but the interviews are both revealing and poignant. Escape survivor Alan Bryett, for instance, expresses sympathy for the Germans, who were only following orders, even though he's distressed to this day by what happened: "You expect one or two to be killed - that's part of the game. But to have 50 murdered…" he says with tears in his eyes, "That's terrible. Terrible."
Radio Times reviewer - Jane Rackham
Monday 02 November
9:00pm - 10:00pm
Channel 4
There can't be many people who haven't seen the 1963 Hollywood film The Great Escape, starring Steve McQueen - it was always on TV at Christmas. However, it was a highly glamorised version of how 76 Allied airmen really did escape from a PoW camp deep in Nazi Germany in 1944. This engrossing documentary tells the story of that audacious escape and its shocking consequences. Only three men made it back home, while 50 were caught and executed by the Gestapo in defiance of the Geneva Convention, which stated that attempted escape by PoWs was a disciplinary offence punishable by 30 days in solitary confinement. So appalling was this to postwar Britain that Frank McKenna, a former policeman, ended up spending years painstakingly tracking down the perpetrators in order to deliver "exemplary justice". The reconstructions are a shade overdone, but the interviews are both revealing and poignant. Escape survivor Alan Bryett, for instance, expresses sympathy for the Germans, who were only following orders, even though he's distressed to this day by what happened: "You expect one or two to be killed - that's part of the game. But to have 50 murdered…" he says with tears in his eyes, "That's terrible. Terrible."
Radio Times reviewer - Jane Rackham
Vespula said:
War is a strange business.
The Gestapo shoot 50 Allied airmen in cold blood = very bad.
The RAF and USAF carpet bomb Dresden in February 1945 and kill 40,000 civilians = very good.
Don't get me wrong, the Nazis had to be beaten.
Don't get me wrong - are you trying to equate the behaviour of the Gestapo with the RAF?The Gestapo shoot 50 Allied airmen in cold blood = very bad.
The RAF and USAF carpet bomb Dresden in February 1945 and kill 40,000 civilians = very good.
Don't get me wrong, the Nazis had to be beaten.
Edited by Vespula on Monday 2nd November 21:20
Yes, obviously I am. The RAF made a concious decision to abandon attacking strategic targets (because it was difficult to be so exact) and to commence indiscriminate bombing of German cities thereby killing many women, children and civilians. Dresden was particularly badly hit right at the end of the war and it has been a controversy ever since.
Can you not see the irony that the RAF was absolutely outraged that it's Airmen should not be allowed to escape without being murdered so they could get back to England, get back in their aircraft and resume bombing German cities, and that after the war they wanted to murder the murderers?
Do I think the Gestapo were evil? Yes, absolutely.
Do I think the RAF was evil? No, of course not.
Can you not see the irony that the RAF was absolutely outraged that it's Airmen should not be allowed to escape without being murdered so they could get back to England, get back in their aircraft and resume bombing German cities, and that after the war they wanted to murder the murderers?
Do I think the Gestapo were evil? Yes, absolutely.
Do I think the RAF was evil? No, of course not.
Vespula said:
Yes, obviously I am. The RAF made a concious decision to abandon attacking strategic targets (because it was difficult to be so exact) and to commence indiscriminate bombing of German cities thereby killing many women, children and civilians. Dresden was particularly badly hit right at the end of the war and it has been a controversy ever since.
Can you not see the irony that the RAF was absolutely outraged that it's Airmen should not be allowed to escape without being murdered so they could get back to England, get back in their aircraft and resume bombing German cities, and that after the war they wanted to murder the murderers?
Do I think the Gestapo were evil? Yes, absolutely.
Do I think the RAF was evil? No, of course not.
Did the RAF take that decision in total isolation? Did Harris wake up one morning and decide "Let's bomb German cities" for no reason OTHER than they weren't able to hit more precise targets.Can you not see the irony that the RAF was absolutely outraged that it's Airmen should not be allowed to escape without being murdered so they could get back to England, get back in their aircraft and resume bombing German cities, and that after the war they wanted to murder the murderers?
Do I think the Gestapo were evil? Yes, absolutely.
Do I think the RAF was evil? No, of course not.
The Germans had already lowered the bar regarding what were considered legitimate targets. The list of cities across mainland Europe and Britain which had been decimated by the Luftwaffe was already long before Bomber Command switched its priorities.
I cannot see how you equate the cold blooded murder of British airmen, totally against the Geneva Convention, against a tactic that had already been introduced by an enemy intent on destyroying us. Germany invented total war and had to be faught in kind.
Maybe that is one of Britain's problems these days - we tend to want to beat ourselves up over the things that HAD to be done to literally "save the world" in the 1940s.
"Shades of Grey", you had to feel sympathy for those Gestapo "recruited" from civilian Police who realised they were in a no win situation. Kill the Airmen and be executed by the allies. Disobey the order and they and their families are executed by the Nazi's. As for the bombing, the Germans created "Coventriert", (Coventry-trated) and reaped the whirlwind when their own cities became the target.
telecat said:
"Shades of Grey", you had to feel sympathy for those Gestapo "recruited" from civilian Police who realised they were in a no win situation. Kill the Airmen and be executed by the allies. Disobey the order and they and their families are executed by the Nazi's. As for the bombing, the Germans created "Coventriert", (Coventry-trated) and reaped the whirlwind when their own cities became the target.
What wasn't made clear was how and why some of these Gestapo officers joined the Gestapo. Did they join voluntarilly as part of their "career progression" or were they forced to join?Vespula said:
War is a strange business.
The Gestapo shoot 50 Allied airmen in cold blood = very bad.
The RAF and USAF carpet bomb Dresden in February 1945 and kill 40,000 civilians = very good.
Don't get me wrong, the Nazis had to be beaten.
They started it, we finished it.. Simples...The Gestapo shoot 50 Allied airmen in cold blood = very bad.
The RAF and USAF carpet bomb Dresden in February 1945 and kill 40,000 civilians = very good.
Don't get me wrong, the Nazis had to be beaten.
Edited by Vespula on Monday 2nd November 21:20
Eric Mc said:
telecat said:
"Shades of Grey", you had to feel sympathy for those Gestapo "recruited" from civilian Police who realised they were in a no win situation. Kill the Airmen and be executed by the allies. Disobey the order and they and their families are executed by the Nazi's. As for the bombing, the Germans created "Coventriert", (Coventry-trated) and reaped the whirlwind when their own cities became the target.
What wasn't made clear was how and why some of these Gestapo officers joined the Gestapo. Did they join voluntarily as part of their "career progression" or were they forced to join?telecat said:
Eric Mc said:
telecat said:
"Shades of Grey", you had to feel sympathy for those Gestapo "recruited" from civilian Police who realised they were in a no win situation. Kill the Airmen and be executed by the allies. Disobey the order and they and their families are executed by the Nazi's. As for the bombing, the Germans created "Coventriert", (Coventry-trated) and reaped the whirlwind when their own cities became the target.
What wasn't made clear was how and why some of these Gestapo officers joined the Gestapo. Did they join voluntarily as part of their "career progression" or were they forced to join?If you were a regular policeman would you have been obliged or forced to join the Geheime Staatspolizei (Secret State Police)?
Eric Mc said:
telecat said:
Eric Mc said:
telecat said:
"Shades of Grey", you had to feel sympathy for those Gestapo "recruited" from civilian Police who realised they were in a no win situation. Kill the Airmen and be executed by the allies. Disobey the order and they and their families are executed by the Nazi's. As for the bombing, the Germans created "Coventriert", (Coventry-trated) and reaped the whirlwind when their own cities became the target.
What wasn't made clear was how and why some of these Gestapo officers joined the Gestapo. Did they join voluntarily as part of their "career progression" or were they forced to join?If you were a regular policeman would you have been obliged or forced to join the Geheime Staatspolizei (Secret State Police)?
By the time some of these Officers were recruited I would think a refusal would be suicide. However some would still volunteer as they still believed in Hitler or maybe were after power and influence.
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff