How does an E34 540i differ to an E34 m5, handling wise?
Discussion
hi all, i was just wondering really, how e34 m5's differ to the 540's barring the engine obviously. Do they have quicker steering, different geometry, obviously m5's have the limited slip diff but and some of the electronic dampers, but are their other changes? steering box etc?
I tried to do a search, but m5 is too short, to be searched for, you need 3 characters in order to search.
I tried to do a search, but m5 is too short, to be searched for, you need 3 characters in order to search.
I am NOT an expert but the 540i has a heavier engine and the much maligned rotating ball steering as opposed to rack and pinion on all the 6 cylinder cars, including the M5 if I recall correctly. Can't say as I notice the steering to be particularly bad but then I don't track or rally it 
It is a bit vague though.
The E34 540 does have the M-tec suspension, to help cater for the weight as much as anything else. It is firm but not "sporty" in my view.
Does the 540 not have LSD as well? Mine has a form of traction control - not sure if that is standard (suspect it is).
It is a bit vague though.The E34 540 does have the M-tec suspension, to help cater for the weight as much as anything else. It is firm but not "sporty" in my view.
Does the 540 not have LSD as well? Mine has a form of traction control - not sure if that is standard (suspect it is).
That's not quite right - all E34s have recirc ball steering box. The difference is that the M5 has a faster ratio (15.x:1 rather than 16.2ish). WIth a little effort you can dial-out all the play in the box anyway, and the result is worthwhile.
The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
Edited by Huff on Tuesday 3rd November 10:18
I haven't compared them back to back, but I have driven an M-reg M5 3.8 with the 18" wheels and 6-sp box and owned a P-reg E34 530i Touring automatic which had M-Tech suspension and LSD but was on the standard 16" V8 alloys. I think the latter is pretty close to the 540i's spec. Both had done ~150k miles when I last drove them.
The steering in the M5 is quicker than the 530, and the 530 had ridiculously tall gearing whereas the M5's was just very tall. The M5 did feel nicely planted, but then the 530 also felt pretty planted and sporty compared to the E39 I changed it for. I didn't get the chance to really push the M5, but in everyday use, I'd say there's not a lot in it. The M5 felt like it was a heavy car, but that's possibly due to the weight of the controls compared to my E39, and I'm not sure if the 530 would feel the same if I stepped straight out of an E39 and could try it again.
Basically, there's far more difference between an E39 and E34 than there is between a non-M E34 and an M5 in my experience!
The steering in the M5 is quicker than the 530, and the 530 had ridiculously tall gearing whereas the M5's was just very tall. The M5 did feel nicely planted, but then the 530 also felt pretty planted and sporty compared to the E39 I changed it for. I didn't get the chance to really push the M5, but in everyday use, I'd say there's not a lot in it. The M5 felt like it was a heavy car, but that's possibly due to the weight of the controls compared to my E39, and I'm not sure if the 530 would feel the same if I stepped straight out of an E39 and could try it again.
Basically, there's far more difference between an E39 and E34 than there is between a non-M E34 and an M5 in my experience!
Huff said:
That's not quite right - all E34s have recirc ball steering box. The difference is that the M5 has a faster ratio (15.x:1 rather than 16.2ish). WIth a little effort you can dial-out all the play in the box anyway, and the result is worthwhile.
The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
Good stuff Huff The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
Edited by Huff on Tuesday 3rd November 10:18
Learn something new everyday here!
Huff said:
That's not quite right - all E34s have recirc ball steering box. The difference is that the M5 has a faster ratio (15.x:1 rather than 16.2ish). WIth a little effort you can dial-out all the play in the box anyway, and the result is worthwhile.
The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
Thanks mate, this is what i was thinking, i once bought the cheapest e34 525 on the trader, and i loved it, despite it being cream crackered. I liked it more than my current tidy e36. So i'd kinda like another, people always rant and rave about the handling of the m5, but i figured if a 540 could be made to handle like a M5 (or better, given choice sensible modifications), it'd be a great car, with iirc better fuel economy, a v8 noise - never had a v8, always wanted one. The problem i had with the 525 (aside from all the play in the steering - which i now know can be adjusted out), was the slow gearing on the steering, not helped by a ship sized wheel.The M60 v8 is also slightly lighter than the big iron six! Certainly the M5s are about the same weight as the 540s, if not a little heavier due to the toys.
The 'mtech' suspension of the 540s is the same as the 3.6 M5s (spring rates and rollbars, IIRC), which leaves the matter of geometry, damping - and wheels. I swapped to 17" Throwing Stars from the V8 'jellyfish' and the was a noticable increase in steering precision - down to shorter sidewalls and lighter wheels perhaps.
Edit - no LSDs in 540s, just the optional ASC+T electrickery. V8 Final drive is higher too (2.93:1 not 3.15) which helps the M5 in the acceleration stakes, quite part from the extra power it had.
Edited by Huff on Tuesday 3rd November 10:18
If the m5/540 use the same steering box, a 540i with a slippy diff (which im told the one from a 750 fits), a thorough rebushing, lightweight, large wheels, the right anti roll bars, dampers and springs, i'd have a awesome car, just a bit down on power and a bit long in the gears.
Edited by bigfatnick on Tuesday 3rd November 18:16
SJobson said:
I haven't compared them back to back, but I have driven an M-reg M5 3.8 with the 18" wheels and 6-sp box and owned a P-reg E34 530i Touring automatic which had M-Tech suspension and LSD but was on the standard 16" V8 alloys. I think the latter is pretty close to the 540i's spec. Both had done ~150k miles when I last drove them.
The steering in the M5 is quicker than the 530, and the 530 had ridiculously tall gearing whereas the M5's was just very tall. The M5 did feel nicely planted, but then the 530 also felt pretty planted and sporty compared to the E39 I changed it for. I didn't get the chance to really push the M5, but in everyday use, I'd say there's not a lot in it. The M5 felt like it was a heavy car, but that's possibly due to the weight of the controls compared to my E39, and I'm not sure if the 530 would feel the same if I stepped straight out of an E39 and could try it again.
Basically, there's far more difference between an E39 and E34 than there is between a non-M E34 and an M5 in my experience!
interesting, cheers mate. So if the steering in the m5 is quicker than other e34's that makes sense. I always wondered how people could rant and rave about the handling of the m5 if the steering was like my e34!The steering in the M5 is quicker than the 530, and the 530 had ridiculously tall gearing whereas the M5's was just very tall. The M5 did feel nicely planted, but then the 530 also felt pretty planted and sporty compared to the E39 I changed it for. I didn't get the chance to really push the M5, but in everyday use, I'd say there's not a lot in it. The M5 felt like it was a heavy car, but that's possibly due to the weight of the controls compared to my E39, and I'm not sure if the 530 would feel the same if I stepped straight out of an E39 and could try it again.
Basically, there's far more difference between an E39 and E34 than there is between a non-M E34 and an M5 in my experience!
Frstly all M5's were hand built in Garching, the 540i's were production line produced by BMW elsewhere. The M cars were designed with performance in mind the 540i was a cruiser. 3.6's re great to drive hard, many today have better suspension than when they left the factory 18 years ago and most have been modified or driven into the ground. The 3.8 M5 is a considerably more potent car than the 540i, not only regarding handling, the EDC Nurburgring suspension package and the floating rotors make it a very fast car both into and out of corners. The steering is sharp, the throttle response electric and the noise above 4000rpm is outrageous.
The 540i is a good heavy car, built for motorways and long drives. The M5 both in 3.6 and 3.8 forms are top end sports cars with saloon capabilities.
Do you want performance figures, final drive figures, weights and additional facts for all E34 M5's and the 540i?
The 540i is a good heavy car, built for motorways and long drives. The M5 both in 3.6 and 3.8 forms are top end sports cars with saloon capabilities.
Do you want performance figures, final drive figures, weights and additional facts for all E34 M5's and the 540i?
Edited by belleair302 on Tuesday 3rd November 20:58
belleair302 said:
Frstly all M5's were hand built in Garching, the 540i's were production line produced by BMW elsewhere. The M cars were designed with performance in mind the 540i was a cruiser. 3.6's re great to drive hard, many today have better suspension than when they left the factory 18 years ago and most have been modified or driven into the ground. The 3.8 M5 is a considerably more potent car than the 540i, not only regarding handling, the EDC Nurburgring suspension package and the floating rotors make it a very fast car both into and out of corners. The steering is sharp, the throttle response electric and the noise above 4000rpm is outrageous.
The 540i is a good heavy car, built for motorways and long drives. The M5 both in 3.6 and 3.8 forms are top end sports cars with saloon capabilities.
Do you want performance figures, final drive figures, weights and additional facts for all E34 M5's and the 540i?
cheers mate, i knew the m5's were handbuilt, but i've never really understood the whole handbuilt thing, if they still use the same components, i struggle to see the difference, tvr's are handbuilt, look at them...The 540i is a good heavy car, built for motorways and long drives. The M5 both in 3.6 and 3.8 forms are top end sports cars with saloon capabilities.
Do you want performance figures, final drive figures, weights and additional facts for all E34 M5's and the 540i?
Thats kinda the point of my thread, i was hoping to find out what the differences were between the 2 cars (barring the powertrain stuff) with the intentions of trying to work out wether it'd be viable to upgrade a 540i to m5 or higher standard. - i guess not?
i dare say the running costs on an m5 would be pretty high compared to a 540i?
I don't think the fact they are handbuilt is any great benefit - M5s seem to rust more than line-built cars, not sure whether that's linked.
Having looked at the extensive history of a 150k mile M5 and had a 150k mile non-M E34, I think the running costs are a bit higher. Just balancing the throttles is an example of the extra maintenance they require. EDC is pricey too.
Having looked at the extensive history of a 150k mile M5 and had a 150k mile non-M E34, I think the running costs are a bit higher. Just balancing the throttles is an example of the extra maintenance they require. EDC is pricey too.
belleair302 said:
Frstly all M5's were hand built in Garching, the 540i's were production line produced by BMW elsewhere.
Dingolfing, I would suspect.belleair302 said:
The M cars were designed with performance in mind the 540i was a cruiser.
Something of a sweeping statement I think. Both are pretty powerfulchariots, the M5 being the more extreme version.
belleair302 said:
The steering is sharp, the throttle response electric and the noise above 4000rpm is outrageous.
Debatable - I think the E34 may have the old recirculating ballsteering, which was replaced by the much better rack'n'pinion on most of
the E39s.
Throttle response is about what you'd expect for a big heavy saloon
car with a lot of power. An Elise it isn't.
As for the noise above 4000 rpm, you aren't going to experience that
for long in the UK, otherwise you will be making most journeys on the bus,
at the police's request.
belleair302 said:
The 540i is a good heavy car, built for motorways and long drives. The M5 both in 3.6 and 3.8 forms are top end sports cars with saloon capabilities.
No - the M5 is a medium sized family saloon car with a big engine and suspensionto match.
A sports car it isn't - a 911, an Elise, an NSX and a S2000 are
all sports cars.
In summary, all the E34s are thin on the ground these days, the V8 E34s
even more so. Arguing that the M5 is chalk'n'cheese to the 540 is a debatable
point - they are very similar cars with the M5 being the more extreme version.
How much of the M5's power you could actually use in the real world
in Brown's hopelessly congested, camera infested and speed obsessed
version of the UK, is at very least questionable.
In case you want any more experiences.... I had decent test drives in a bunch of E34 saloons on the same day - M5 (3.6 5 spd - cos a 3.8 was outside my budget), 540 auto, 540 man (6spd). I bought the 540 manual.
My criteria: I wanted someting fun to thrash but that was great for the family, could tow well and be good for my 100 mile-per-day commute (having only 10 miles of decent driving roads).
My reasoning:
Firstly, I ruled out the 540 auto quite quickly. It is a totally different car to the manual; fast comfortable cruiser only, no real sporting intentions imho.
The 540 man and M5 were much closer. I liked the more direct steering of the M5 (contrary to Huff, I understand that all the S6s are rack and pinion, the V8s are recirculating ball because there's no space for the rack.)
Everything else went the way of the 540 - more torque, better engine note (this is personal, I like V8s), cheaper servicing, cheaper insurance, better mpg (higher top gear ratio). Plus a few little things - my 540 has the comfort interior, which means soft leather chairs and arm rests, it also has cruise control. The sport interiors are firmer and have no arm rests.
After 70k miles in my 540, the only thing I sometimes think about changing is to fit an LSD (these were an option, mine has the traction control electrickery only). Having said that, I don't have any trouble getting more than a little sideways with the current setup. On a track, of course.
Any use?
My criteria: I wanted someting fun to thrash but that was great for the family, could tow well and be good for my 100 mile-per-day commute (having only 10 miles of decent driving roads).
My reasoning:
Firstly, I ruled out the 540 auto quite quickly. It is a totally different car to the manual; fast comfortable cruiser only, no real sporting intentions imho.
The 540 man and M5 were much closer. I liked the more direct steering of the M5 (contrary to Huff, I understand that all the S6s are rack and pinion, the V8s are recirculating ball because there's no space for the rack.)
Everything else went the way of the 540 - more torque, better engine note (this is personal, I like V8s), cheaper servicing, cheaper insurance, better mpg (higher top gear ratio). Plus a few little things - my 540 has the comfort interior, which means soft leather chairs and arm rests, it also has cruise control. The sport interiors are firmer and have no arm rests.
After 70k miles in my 540, the only thing I sometimes think about changing is to fit an LSD (these were an option, mine has the traction control electrickery only). Having said that, I don't have any trouble getting more than a little sideways with the current setup. On a track, of course.
Any use?
sideways500 said:
(contrary to Huff, I understand that all the S6s are rack and pinion, the V8s are recirculating ball because there's no space for the rack.)
All E34s are recirculating ball, including the M5; the steering box is quicker on the M5 than normal E34s though.You're probably thinking of the E39, where the straight-6 engines are rack and pinion but the V8s are recirculating ball.
As dcb points out...I wonder whether, in the real world, we're really beginning to split-hairs a little here?
Both cars are fundamentally very similar, very easy licence-losers on the public road and realistically the subtle differing nuances we're talking about aren't really as great/important as they once were?
Neither car can be exploited to their maximum on public roads for anything more than a few seconds...especially here in the U.K.
As he also rightly points out, any really good E34s are already few and far between. It seems like ages since I've seen a really good sounding E34 M5 for sale.
More important I think now is to look for the 'good car' rather than focusing too much on the narrower differences.
I'd go even further...
I'm really beginning to wonder what we're doing...or rather still being sold:
I just got back this morning at 2.30 am after a 700 mile trip back from the South of France in my AMG C55 Estate.
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spg...
An awesome car no doubt which handled the total 2000 mile-plus trip with aplomb but..and it's a big BUT...even on empty French roads one just cannot really exploit a car like this.
All the way from Bergerac to as far as Rouen there was virtually no other traffic on smooth French Autoroutes and other main roads. There were even parts between Le Mans and Rouen yesterday afternoon with literally nothing on the road ahead or behind us for as far as one could see. On could have driven literally 'flat-out'...but even there we don't. Why? The reality is:
One could get nicked (though far less easily than in the U.K) and it burns up far too much fuel...so the reality is actually "we don't" for anything more than a few seconds. Why do we kid ourselves we do?
One does for the most part is stick to the speed limit and so it actually eventually makes one feel a little embarrassed to be followed, in your 5.5L AMG, for mile upon mile, by a yellow Renault Twingo doing the same 130 kph as you!
Just now I went to collect my 20 year old 190E from my mechanic and drove it back along English A-Roads (empty as I live in Shropshire) at legal speed limits and the reality is it was just as nice to drive! At a fraction of the cost!
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spg...
Just food for thought?
Anyway..I digress...my point is:
I think in terms of E34s it's far more advisable to focus on seeking out a really good car than to worry about relatively subtle variations between the 540i vs M5 and then to use that as the starting point to eliminate one variant over the other IMHO.
Both cars are fundamentally very similar, very easy licence-losers on the public road and realistically the subtle differing nuances we're talking about aren't really as great/important as they once were?
Neither car can be exploited to their maximum on public roads for anything more than a few seconds...especially here in the U.K.
As he also rightly points out, any really good E34s are already few and far between. It seems like ages since I've seen a really good sounding E34 M5 for sale.
More important I think now is to look for the 'good car' rather than focusing too much on the narrower differences.
I'd go even further...
I'm really beginning to wonder what we're doing...or rather still being sold:
I just got back this morning at 2.30 am after a 700 mile trip back from the South of France in my AMG C55 Estate.
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spg...
An awesome car no doubt which handled the total 2000 mile-plus trip with aplomb but..and it's a big BUT...even on empty French roads one just cannot really exploit a car like this.
All the way from Bergerac to as far as Rouen there was virtually no other traffic on smooth French Autoroutes and other main roads. There were even parts between Le Mans and Rouen yesterday afternoon with literally nothing on the road ahead or behind us for as far as one could see. On could have driven literally 'flat-out'...but even there we don't. Why? The reality is:
One could get nicked (though far less easily than in the U.K) and it burns up far too much fuel...so the reality is actually "we don't" for anything more than a few seconds. Why do we kid ourselves we do?
One does for the most part is stick to the speed limit and so it actually eventually makes one feel a little embarrassed to be followed, in your 5.5L AMG, for mile upon mile, by a yellow Renault Twingo doing the same 130 kph as you!
Just now I went to collect my 20 year old 190E from my mechanic and drove it back along English A-Roads (empty as I live in Shropshire) at legal speed limits and the reality is it was just as nice to drive! At a fraction of the cost!
http://www.bmwclassics.co.uk/gallery/index.php?spg...
Just food for thought?
Anyway..I digress...my point is:
I think in terms of E34s it's far more advisable to focus on seeking out a really good car than to worry about relatively subtle variations between the 540i vs M5 and then to use that as the starting point to eliminate one variant over the other IMHO.
Edited by derin100 on Sunday 8th November 17:20
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