After Market ECU from Triggerwheels.com. Wotcha reckon?

[2Munkys]

With thought of John Eales X ram manifold in mind, I've been looking at my options for an aftermarket ECU to run in conjunction with it, i.e: AMM'less fuel management (initially thinking Omex 710).

I've not seen this Microsquirt package from 'Triggerwheels' before (£599 inc.). Anyone got comment to make? Dunno who'd do my mapping on the rollers if I took this route? Are most RR operators familiar with it?

http://trigger-wheels.com/store/index1.html

[spend]

MicroS seems pretty similar to MS, just better connectors / casework / build??? Look at VEMS as an alternative, 8 inj drivers is a big + IMHO.

[2Munkys]

spend said:

MicroS seems pretty similar to MS, just better connectors / casework / build??? Look at VEMS as an alternative, 8 inj drivers is a big + IMHO.

That a then Dave? I'd value an opinion from those with expertise such as yourself; I want reliability and back-up and not having to be paying for functions I won't need. This one-stop looks tempting; just don't know how 'known' it is out there.

I'm aware of VEMS but little more than that.

And I'm gonna be asking questions about looming before long so stand by for that one too!

[spitfire4v8]

by the time youve got an ecu fitted and mapped it's very expensive, you may well regret saving a few hundred pounds on your ecu when your mapper takes twice as long to map it because it's a PITA. I have no idea what system the microsquirt uses but if its anything like megasquirt youre few hundred pounds ecu saving will evaporate very quickly in dyno time. It is quite possibly the least intuitive mapping system ever developed and the online help forums are dreadful It's cheap, but is it good value?

[adyw]

I did MS on my griffith, took sometime but got there eventualy,
a little write up i did

http://www.thegriffithpages.com/index.php?option=c...

[Uncle Fester]

Emerald supplied a Trigger wheels timing wheel kit. The installation was done by V8D and they found the Trigger wheels didn’t fit. It turned out that the Trigger wheels kit was for pre Serp engines only.

It turned out that Trigger wheels didn’t make a kit suitable for Serp engines, although they did say that they had plans to introduce one.

In the end it was quicker, easier and cheaper to get the J.E. kit than to try modifying the Trigger wheels one.

[dnb]

spend said:

MicroS seems pretty similar to MS, just better connectors / casework / build??? Look at VEMS as an alternative, 8 inj drivers is a big + IMHO.

I tend to agree. The new VEMS tuning software is streets ahead of what was done in Megatune now, and the latest ECU firmware has some really good features too. (Plus I can supply a tolerably good base config... I have a good understanding of VEMS these days)

I found the Emerald software to be extremely user hostile. But it's simply a case of what you get used to - I'm sure I would get to like it if I used it more. User interfaces are an "eye of the beholder" thing whatever happens.

The simple answer is to go with what your chosen tuner knows best since it will result in the lowest labour cost if you aren't doing things yourself. If you intend to do most of the work yourself then anything can be made to work given enough time.

[GreenV8S]

dnb said:

The new VEMS tuning software is streets ahead of what was done in Megatune now, and the latest ECU firmware has some really good features too.

I've never used VEMS, what's it like to work with?

I started off using MegaTune and, as you say, it's pretty cumbersome for mapping. OK for general configuration settings and options though. For mapping I use MegaLogViewer, which simplifies the whole process immensely. Essentially, you set a target AFR map and do a few runs with data logging, MLV then adjusts the map towards your target AFR. Transients and cold start etc all have to be sorted out manually, but the main job of sorting out the basic map is pretty painless.

I'm still disappointed though that MegaSquirt (and Emerald, and Omex, from my limited experience of them) don't have a proper separation between the volumetric efficiency and the target AFR. What they describe as a 'volumetric efficiency' map is actually a thinly disguised injector duration map. Which means as soon as you change the engine you have to work the whole thing out again. If the map was broken down into its separate components, there would be far less work in setting up new engines.

[330p4]

Bruce have a look at Megasquirt 1/2 V3 if you google Extra EFI he has a 5 litre TVR map you can download or perhaps you could persuade Adrian in the post above to email his map for a few beer chits. Using the logging software in megatune you can fine tune the map if you can get a base map it can make for an economical installation not everyone wants or can afford to throw £2K at having a system installed
Ian

[dnb]

GreenV8S said:

I've never used VEMS, what's it like to work with?

I started off using MegaTune and, as you say, it's pretty cumbersome for mapping. OK for general configuration settings and options though. For mapping I use MegaLogViewer, which simplifies the whole process immensely. Essentially, you set a target AFR map and do a few runs with data logging, MLV then adjusts the map towards your target AFR. Transients and cold start etc all have to be sorted out manually, but the main job of sorting out the basic map is pretty painless.

I'm still disappointed though that MegaSquirt (and Emerald, and Omex, from my limited experience of them) don't have a proper separation between the volumetric efficiency and the target AFR....

It's pretty good to work with most of the time. It has its moments of course, but what doesn't? You can use MegaLogViewer if you like, but I tend to use a few Perl scripts I wrote a while ago and excel to plot charts of various things - such as calibrating the transients and warmup stuff.

VEMS separates injector size, VE and target AFR quite nicely. It means there's one more table to tune, but the added complexity is well worth it if (like me) your car isn't quite the same from one month to the next...

[griffdude]

Hey Bruce, thought you were already running an after market ECU?

[Bluebottle]

Hi Bruce,
Omex 710 is a good unit but I would talk to MA re: your other choices as he's got a lot of experience with most of the industry std stuff.
The likes of Megasquirt/Emerald etc. really comes down to how much repetitive hands on tinkering your want to be doing, or do you just want to fit and forget?, which is my ultimate goal.

Have you had a look at this?;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The specs on it sound very good, but i would like to see more feedback from people who have actually used it.

[GreenV8S]

As I understand it, the big difference with MegaSquirt is that it's not got any BSI approval so you won't find anyone prepared to supply and fit professionally. It's really aimed at the DIY installation where people are prepared to put their own time and effort in to do the job themselves. In fact I seem to remember the documentation referred to it as 'experimental' - it's designed for people (like me) who want to play.

[neal1980]

I fitted megasquirt to mine with an lc1 wideband. This was approx 2 years ago its ran fine and never let me down. Used the wheel from JE. I got mine from extraefi and theres so much help available I found it was a no brainer for me! And I like to tinker

[2Munkys]

griffdude said:

Hey Bruce, thought you were already running an after market ECU?

Omex 150 for the sparks and a MA chipped 14CUX, so, yea, sort of. Never had issue with it; I just need to be rid of the AMM if I cobble on the JED X ram manifold.

[2Munkys]

Bluebottle said:

Hi Bruce,
Omex 710 is a good unit but I would talk to MA re: your other choices as he's got a lot of experience with most of the industry std stuff.

The 710 was my first thought. I believe Mark is still away someplace; he's still my first point of contact in such matters.

Bluebottle said:

The likes of Megasquirt/Emerald etc. really comes down to how much repetitive hands on tinkering your want to be doing, or do you just want to fit and forget?, which is my ultimate goal.

Fit and have mapped by someone that knows their stuff. Oh, and the unit will need tweekability for any further irrational upgrades I may drum up.

Bluebottle said:

Have you had a look at this?;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The specs on it sound very good, but i would like to see more feedback from people who have actually used it.

I did see it; I'll have a deeper look.

[spitfire4v8]

Agree the MS is fine if you have lots of time to trawl through the forums or you just like to tinker at home and not too bothered about how long it takes you, or how much down-time you have with your car. If DNB is right though the VEMS sounds a leap forward from MS ? Might be worth a look if that's the case ?

[Mark Adams]

2Munkys said:

Omex 150 for the sparks and a MA chipped 14CUX, so, yea, sort of. Never had issue with it; I just need to be rid of the AMM if I cobble on the JED X ram manifold.

Some progress here Bruce, so no need to unload the AFM which is still easily the best form of metering in my humble opinion.

Within the next couple of weeks I should be over on John Eale's dyno setting up a new engine that would probably interest people here. I'm sure I can put up some info afterwards if required.

The motor is a 5.1, running John's X-over manifolds. The management is Lucas-Sagem GEMS, and it runs twin Bosch AFMs via a special processing unit. This motor will end up in a Morgan Plus Eight in the USA.

It is such a pity that Lucas-Sagem GEMS is not really a retro-fit option, and has to be considered at the time the engine is built. It is so far ahead of anything aftermarket, and is the system I choose for my own engines. There are actually quite a lot of Land Rover Defenders that have had this system installed, but as yet no TVRs.

Here's a newly installed one (last month) shaking down on the British Cross Country Championship 2009 Crickhowell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3OJF5q9fcc&fea...

Twin AFMs can also be used with the trusty 14CUX, so you don't need to add the cost of a management system change onto the already stout cost of the induction hardware. Since the 14CUX fuelling is far more sophisticated than most of the aftermarket systems, it will run nicely and stay in tune. It could really do with mapped ignition though, because there is usually plenty of power and flexibility to be had there.

Jools has a very valid point about how difficult a system is to set up. Well worth factoring into the equation, since the hardware is often the cheap bit! The average 14CUX takes only 1.0-1.5 hours to map, plus up to another hour if there is Omex ignition management. GEMS requires no time on the dyno.

BTW I always use John Eale's trigger kits on serpentine engines.

Edited by Mark Adams on Tuesday 10th November 17:50

Edited by Mark Adams on Tuesday 10th November 17:55

[dnb]

I too use a John Eales trigger kit. I have found it the most reliable trigger solution on the market (but also the most expensive) Given it's the most important sensor on the engine it doesn't make sense to cut corners on it.

Mark - any more news on the Bosch ECU mapping? I am becoming in need of tinkering with the RR now

Joo - I'm mostly right...

[2Munkys]

Mark Adams said:

Some progress here Bruce, so no need to unload the AFM which is still easily the best form of metering in my humble opinion.

Within the next couple of weeks I should be over on John Eale's dyno setting up a new engine that would probably interest people here. I'm sure I can put up some info afterwards if required.

The motor is a 5.1, running John's X-over manifolds. The management is Lucas-Sagem GEMS, and it runs twin Bosch AFMs via a special processing unit. This motor will end up in a Morgan Plus Eight in the USA.

It is such a pity that Lucas-Sagem GEMS is not really a retro-fit option, and has to be considered at the time the engine is built. It is so far ahead of anything aftermarket, and is the system I choose for my own engines. There are actually quite a lot of Land Rover Defenders that have had this system installed, but as yet no TVRs.

Here's a newly installed one (last month) shaking down on the British Cross Country Championship 2009 Crickhowell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3OJF5q9fcc&fea...

Twin AFMs can also be used with the trusty 14CUX, so you don't need to add the cost of a management system change onto the already stout cost of the induction hardware. Since the 14CUX fuelling is far more sophisticated than most of the aftermarket systems, it will run nicely and stay in tune. It could really do with mapped ignition though, because there is usually plenty of power and flexibility to be had there.

Jools has a very valid point about how difficult a system is to set up. Well worth factoring into the equation, since the hardware is often the cheap bit! The average 14CUX takes only 1.0-1.5 hours to map, plus up to another hour if there is Omex ignition management. GEMS requires no time on the dyno.

BTW I always use John Eale's trigger kits on serpentine engines.

Oooh, I think we'll consider that an obligation then Mark . Photo's attached/footage linked would be a bonus . . . no, essential!