"Green" cars to apparently be "more dirty"
Discussion
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
zac510 said:
s2art, are you conveniently forgetting that diesel is mined, refined, shipped around the world, stored in tanks, trucked to forecourt, then sold?
I saw these figures in Autocar earlier this year and electric was still out on top in from earth-car type scenario.
Yup, thats the 5% loss I mentioned. Autocar has it wrong.I saw these figures in Autocar earlier this year and electric was still out on top in from earth-car type scenario.
zac510 said:
s2art, are you conveniently forgetting that diesel is mined, refined, shipped around the world, stored in tanks, trucked to forecourt, then sold?
You mean, not too dissimilar to what happens with the gas we get from Russia to burn in our power stations to charge electric cars?Autocar - which scientific publisher is that from
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
Figures for ground/well to wheel have been calculated multiple times and each time electricity, even with grid losses, comes out ahead of ICE.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:39
odyssey2200 said:
Electric cars are a complete dead end and only being touted about so that the car manufacturers appeal to the misguided Deciples Of Gore and escape their Wrath of the True Believers.
I disagree, I'm a firm believer in electric cars being the future due to the mechanical simplicity - we have known that they are the way to do things ever since cars were invented, but battery and motor technology has taken my years to catch up.EDIT: Just to add that I do not believe in man-made "climate change" (when did it stop being global warming?), but I do accept that oil will not last forever, but with nuclear we have infinite power for electric equipment.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:42
rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
Figures for ground/well to wheel have been calculated multiple times and each time electricity, even with grid losses, comes out ahead of ICE.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:39
Here is a nice easy to read article;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32acd78e-335c-11de-8f1b-...
rypt said:
odyssey2200 said:
Electric cars are a complete dead end and only being touted about so that the car manufacturers appeal to the misguided Deciples Of Gore and escape their Wrath of the True Believers.
I disagree, I'm a firm believer in electric cars being the future due to the mechanical simplicity - we have known that they are the way to do things ever since cars were invented, but battery and motor technology has taken my years to catch up.s2art said:
rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
Figures for ground/well to wheel have been calculated multiple times and each time electricity, even with grid losses, comes out ahead of ICE.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:39
Here is a nice easy to read article;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32acd78e-335c-11de-8f1b-...
This begs to differ
Blib said:
rypt said:
odyssey2200 said:
Electric cars are a complete dead end and only being touted about so that the car manufacturers appeal to the misguided Deciples Of Gore and escape their Wrath of the True Believers.
I disagree, I'm a firm believer in electric cars being the future due to the mechanical simplicity - we have known that they are the way to do things ever since cars were invented, but battery and motor technology has taken my years to catch up.rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
Figures for ground/well to wheel have been calculated multiple times and each time electricity, even with grid losses, comes out ahead of ICE.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:39
Here is a nice easy to read article;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32acd78e-335c-11de-8f1b-...
This begs to differ
s2art said:
rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
s2art said:
rypt said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/...
Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
Nope. Remember that the electric car gets charged from the grid. The overall efficiency of the grid delivered power is in the low 30's%. Then subtract the losses in charging and discharging the batteries (transformers involved etc).report said:
Under the EU emissions trading system electric cars were likely to result in higher overall CO2 emissions
I'm sorry ... but WHAT?Even if the power-stations were to be 100% coal (which they aren't), an electric car running on coal-generated electricity is still more "efficient"/"green" per mile than an internal combustion car.
Besides, clearly if we are to have electric cars we need to have nuclear power to be green ...
Sometimes I despair at the drivel that comes out of the EU/UK politicians and studies.
The best of the modern diesel cars achieve 40% ish efficiency. Transmission losses will be similar in both cases. There is a cost for the infrastructure to supply fuel, buts its of the order of 5%.
Diesel wins.
Figures for ground/well to wheel have been calculated multiple times and each time electricity, even with grid losses, comes out ahead of ICE.
Edited by rypt on Sunday 15th November 14:39
Here is a nice easy to read article;
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32acd78e-335c-11de-8f1b-...
This begs to differ
Some American states are 90+% non fossil fuel based now for electricity, while others are 90+% fossil fuels only.
turbobloke said:
I remember we had that discussion at length with True Believership on a previous occasion. What chances an attrition loop?
I see turbobloke can't keep the rhetorical nonsense out of any discussion.Whether electric cars are a good or a bad thing depends on the total costs from manufacturing, power generation, transmission (as s2art points out) to disposal, not just running costs. It isn't a matter of ideology, it is a matter of proper accounting, as Prof. MacKay points out in his book.
IIRC the only substantive point I made in the previous discussion was that the CO2 emissions were not the original reason for the introduction of electric vehicles. The reason was other forms of pollution which have become a problem in very large conurbations such as Los Angeles. I can see their point, the sight looking inland from Palos Verdes makes a very good argument for electric vehicles, but it has nothing to do with CO2.
Blib said:
rypt said:
odyssey2200 said:
Electric cars are a complete dead end and only being touted about so that the car manufacturers appeal to the misguided Deciples Of Gore and escape their Wrath of the True Believers.
I disagree, I'm a firm believer in electric cars being the future due to the mechanical simplicity - we have known that they are the way to do things ever since cars were invented, but battery and motor technology has taken my years to catch up.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff