Asbestos Removal
Discussion
Hello All
I currently reside in an apartment. The management company acting on behalf of the freeholder has sent a letter to all residents stating that they are proposing in carrying out asbestos remediation works (a survey & then removal) in the loft areas. I've been into the loft above my flat for a look & there is asbestos sheeting under the water tanks that probably been there since the place was built in the 70's.
I understand asbestos removal will be expensive & in this case as its not likely to be disturbed not a danger. I've read through the following document
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20062739.htm
Found here
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/campaign/duty.htm#w...
& my understanding is it may not have to be removed
My question is has anyone had any experience of this? Is there an obligation to remove the asbestos? The freeholder will expect the leaseholders to pay for this & will pass on the costs above the standard maintenance fees. A cost I wish to avoid if possible
Thanks
I currently reside in an apartment. The management company acting on behalf of the freeholder has sent a letter to all residents stating that they are proposing in carrying out asbestos remediation works (a survey & then removal) in the loft areas. I've been into the loft above my flat for a look & there is asbestos sheeting under the water tanks that probably been there since the place was built in the 70's.
I understand asbestos removal will be expensive & in this case as its not likely to be disturbed not a danger. I've read through the following document
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20062739.htm
Found here
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/campaign/duty.htm#w...
& my understanding is it may not have to be removed
My question is has anyone had any experience of this? Is there an obligation to remove the asbestos? The freeholder will expect the leaseholders to pay for this & will pass on the costs above the standard maintenance fees. A cost I wish to avoid if possible
Thanks
I am one of a total of four Leaseholders of a block of flats, who with the other Leaseholders have appointed a Property Management Company to manage the block.
Since the Property Management Company took over the management, our financial outgoings have increased on not only administration, but also on a Health & Safety Inspection Report, and a Home Maintenance Report, but also as recently recommended to us an Asbestos Inspection Report.
My understanding is that the Leaseholders are liable for the cost of an Asbestos Report, any cost of works resulting from the same, and also accountable for any public liability in any accident or incident within the grounds, property of the block of flats.
I dare say that all these Property Management Companies have a license to print money, and expect they have cronies within different trades to keep their profits healthy.
Since the Property Management Company took over the management, our financial outgoings have increased on not only administration, but also on a Health & Safety Inspection Report, and a Home Maintenance Report, but also as recently recommended to us an Asbestos Inspection Report.
My understanding is that the Leaseholders are liable for the cost of an Asbestos Report, any cost of works resulting from the same, and also accountable for any public liability in any accident or incident within the grounds, property of the block of flats.
I dare say that all these Property Management Companies have a license to print money, and expect they have cronies within different trades to keep their profits healthy.
The freeholder should have a survey to identify any asbestos. Finding it does not necessarily mean it has to be removed. The freeholder should consider the type, condition, damage, whether it is likely to be disturbed etc. and implement the correct management procedure. This could be remove, contain, or label. The surveyor's report should contain a risk assessment so the correct course of action can be taken.
Asbestos is a great material and is still widely used in india and china, unfortunately as we all know it's a nasty substance to handle and can lead to serious health issues.
As far as I know there is no obligation to remove it unless it's being disturbed or is falling into a state of disrepair. If you choose to leave your asbestos in and then you need to replace the water tank you may find the contractor won't touch it due to the asbestos.
If you refuse the removals on your part then it will probably cost you more if you have it removed at a later date due to all the protection works that surround the removals.
As far as I know there is no obligation to remove it unless it's being disturbed or is falling into a state of disrepair. If you choose to leave your asbestos in and then you need to replace the water tank you may find the contractor won't touch it due to the asbestos.
If you refuse the removals on your part then it will probably cost you more if you have it removed at a later date due to all the protection works that surround the removals.
Edited by Bungleaio on Monday 16th November 20:24
I can't recall the exact date, however for around 3-4 years there has been a legal obligation for commercial building owners to have had an asbestos survey carried out (probably why the possible confusion exists between domestic flats and commercial ownership). However, as already mentioned there is no immediate obligation to remove any materials found within the report unless a danger to health.
Perhaps they are taking the opportunity for the current occupiers to pay for the removal of any asbestos found? Equally, if any is found (irrespective of the the potential danger or not) they may wish to entirely remove any future possible claim from occupiers by having it removed?
Just checked and it was in 2006 - Control of Asbestos Regulations, details here... http://www.hse.gov.uk/Pubns/indg223.pdf (where it also clarifies communal/shared areas) I haven't read it all through so apologies if some of my initial comments are incorrect.
Perhaps they are taking the opportunity for the current occupiers to pay for the removal of any asbestos found? Equally, if any is found (irrespective of the the potential danger or not) they may wish to entirely remove any future possible claim from occupiers by having it removed?
Just checked and it was in 2006 - Control of Asbestos Regulations, details here... http://www.hse.gov.uk/Pubns/indg223.pdf (where it also clarifies communal/shared areas) I haven't read it all through so apologies if some of my initial comments are incorrect.
Try to get the works split out into separate contracts, the initial survey and then the removal works.
If you can find a surveyor who doesn't have a self interest in the removal side of the business, then he should just list what is there, what can stay and what needs removing / encapsulating.
Then they write the tender for the removal works and you get 4-5 contractors to price the removal works on a level playing field. Don't just get 3 quotes, as the prices can vary (very) widely. A decent surveyor should also pre-qual those on the tender list, to ensure certfication etc etc.
On the other hand, if you get a surveyor who's firm also removes it, then he'll as often as not recommend removing it all, as the more work he specifies, the more profit his firm will make.
If you can find a surveyor who doesn't have a self interest in the removal side of the business, then he should just list what is there, what can stay and what needs removing / encapsulating.
Then they write the tender for the removal works and you get 4-5 contractors to price the removal works on a level playing field. Don't just get 3 quotes, as the prices can vary (very) widely. A decent surveyor should also pre-qual those on the tender list, to ensure certfication etc etc.
On the other hand, if you get a surveyor who's firm also removes it, then he'll as often as not recommend removing it all, as the more work he specifies, the more profit his firm will make.
Thanks to all for the replies posted.
The freeholder stated that they will carry out a tendering process to find a contractor. If anyone knows any reputable contractors covering the Fanborough, Hants area please let me know & I'll request they be included in the process. I would definitely like to see more than 3 contractors bid (not just the 3 from down the road or golf club associates of the freeholders!)
I think that as the requirement is to "manage the risk" as suggested I'll make the request that the RFQ is split into two parts, a survey & then removal only if necessary.
I should also clarify the asbestos I found is under disused water tanks which were never removed (before I moved in) when new ones where fitted.
On a general note how does the law work with respect to freeholder/leaseholder costs if the freeholder states X work needs to be carried out but the leaseholders disagree. Does it have to be unanimous or can one leaseholder refuse?
The freeholder stated that they will carry out a tendering process to find a contractor. If anyone knows any reputable contractors covering the Fanborough, Hants area please let me know & I'll request they be included in the process. I would definitely like to see more than 3 contractors bid (not just the 3 from down the road or golf club associates of the freeholders!)
I think that as the requirement is to "manage the risk" as suggested I'll make the request that the RFQ is split into two parts, a survey & then removal only if necessary.
I should also clarify the asbestos I found is under disused water tanks which were never removed (before I moved in) when new ones where fitted.
On a general note how does the law work with respect to freeholder/leaseholder costs if the freeholder states X work needs to be carried out but the leaseholders disagree. Does it have to be unanimous or can one leaseholder refuse?
My set of Leaseholders, that form our Management Company, work from a majority decision from the Leaseholders, and since the Leaseholders are responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the leasehold block of flats, then I assume we will be responsible for possibly dealing with the costs of any asbestos inspection/removal.
This Leaseholder advisory web site might be useful to you in the future;
http://www.lease-advice.org/contact/is
This Leaseholder advisory web site might be useful to you in the future;
http://www.lease-advice.org/contact/is
Ganglandboss said:
The freeholder should have a survey to identify any asbestos. Finding it does not necessarily mean it has to be removed. The freeholder should consider the type, condition, damage, whether it is likely to be disturbed etc. and implement the correct management procedure. This could be remove, contain, or label. The surveyor's report should contain a risk assessment so the correct course of action can be taken.
I may be wrong, but i think 'contain' isn't an option any more?I have a number of properties which i work on and asbestos managment is a nightmare. type 2 surveys are all well and good but even after T3 surveys we still find the stuff.
We laugh* (well you have to on such a serious subject) that asbestos removal quotes start with three zeros and you can add a figure at the front depending on what you find.....you think I'm joking? we just paid £30k to have a minimal bit removed on a single storey building that was over 3m tall.
- two of our elder surveyors have died of abestosis in the last 18 months, death isn't funny in the slightest.
I'd agree with only ever seeming to get the quotes in four figures.
We had a site that had some asbestos in it last year. We got a full survey done and then got quotes for removal. The quotes were:-
£14k,
£33k,
£35k,
£37k
and
£80k!
We took the opinion that the company that quoted £14k were probably going to dump it in a field / river / school somewhere....
And the £80k quote, the surveyor turned up in a DB9.......
We've since done a load of work on establishing our "best practice" for procuring asbestos work...
We had a site that had some asbestos in it last year. We got a full survey done and then got quotes for removal. The quotes were:-
£14k,
£33k,
£35k,
£37k
and
£80k!
We took the opinion that the company that quoted £14k were probably going to dump it in a field / river / school somewhere....
And the £80k quote, the surveyor turned up in a DB9.......
We've since done a load of work on establishing our "best practice" for procuring asbestos work...
Following the advice given I sent the response below to the management company
"I refer to your letter reference CC/JB subject Asbestos Remediation Works dated 26th October 2009 and make the following comments.
The wording of your letter implies that (Management Company) is planning to remove the asbestos within the loft divisions of (Property) when this may not necessarily be required. The Control Of Asbestos Regulations 2006 provides that any asbestos found be identified, contained & only removed where necessary after a survey has been conducted. The surveyors risk assessment should list the type, condition, damage & whether it is likely to be disturbed.
Please can (Management Company) comment on the type of survey that will be tendered for eg type 1, 2 or 3?
I would like to see the tender for the work be split into 2 separate contracts. One for the initial survey & the second for subsequent removal/containment work if required. Please can (Management Company) specify the names of the companies they intend to include in the tendering process?
I wish to nominate the following contractors to be included in the tender.
Company #1
Company #2
I request that (Management Company) send a list of the proposed contractors as well as more details on the scope of the proposed work to all residents before commencing."
This is the reply I received this week from the management company & their surveyor
"Dear Tim330
Thanks for your letter. I enclose herewith a letter from X who are our asbestos experts which I trust answers all your queries.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us again if you have any more queries.”
“Dear Tim330
Thankyou for bringing the concerns of your tenant Mr 330 to my attention. I know what an emotive subject asbestos can be, having read Mr 330’s letter I hope I can settle on a couple of the points raised.
A type 2 survey was carried out on 19th Nov 2008. During this survey asbestos fire breaks within the loft were inspected and found to contain amosite, 4 of the fire breaks were recorded as being damaged & in two instances badly broken. These broken boards would have released asbestos fibers into the loft space which could potentially lead to contractors or maintenance personnel being exposed to these fibres if they were asked to carry out works in the loft.
Another consideration would be that these fibers could transfer to the dwellings below if the ceilings were to fail or be opened up for the fitting of new lights.
The type of asbestos that has been identified in the loft space is amosite, this is an amphibole asbestos and carries a high element of risk should there be an exposure & should only be removed by a licensed contractor under strict conditions. The use of a contractor from another part of the UK will not effect the cost of removal as no loading is made for distance as all asbestos removal companies are well used to traveling for their work. The contractors we employ are quality checked & audited under very strict criteria & have never let us or our clients down on any contract. If you could like me to add the two companies to the tender list I would be happy to do this but they would have to go through our quality control procedures before we would employ them on a contract for X.
If the works are commissioned I would be happy to send Mr 330 the name of the selected company & the method statement for the proposed works
I hope this will put your residents minds at rest”
I'm guessing from reading this that the work will be required. I'm suspicious of their statement that the cost is likely to be the same no matter who carries out the work. I'll still request the two local contractors I found be included in the tender. Any suggestions anyone?
Thanks
"I refer to your letter reference CC/JB subject Asbestos Remediation Works dated 26th October 2009 and make the following comments.
The wording of your letter implies that (Management Company) is planning to remove the asbestos within the loft divisions of (Property) when this may not necessarily be required. The Control Of Asbestos Regulations 2006 provides that any asbestos found be identified, contained & only removed where necessary after a survey has been conducted. The surveyors risk assessment should list the type, condition, damage & whether it is likely to be disturbed.
Please can (Management Company) comment on the type of survey that will be tendered for eg type 1, 2 or 3?
I would like to see the tender for the work be split into 2 separate contracts. One for the initial survey & the second for subsequent removal/containment work if required. Please can (Management Company) specify the names of the companies they intend to include in the tendering process?
I wish to nominate the following contractors to be included in the tender.
Company #1
Company #2
I request that (Management Company) send a list of the proposed contractors as well as more details on the scope of the proposed work to all residents before commencing."
This is the reply I received this week from the management company & their surveyor
"Dear Tim330
Thanks for your letter. I enclose herewith a letter from X who are our asbestos experts which I trust answers all your queries.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us again if you have any more queries.”
“Dear Tim330
Thankyou for bringing the concerns of your tenant Mr 330 to my attention. I know what an emotive subject asbestos can be, having read Mr 330’s letter I hope I can settle on a couple of the points raised.
A type 2 survey was carried out on 19th Nov 2008. During this survey asbestos fire breaks within the loft were inspected and found to contain amosite, 4 of the fire breaks were recorded as being damaged & in two instances badly broken. These broken boards would have released asbestos fibers into the loft space which could potentially lead to contractors or maintenance personnel being exposed to these fibres if they were asked to carry out works in the loft.
Another consideration would be that these fibers could transfer to the dwellings below if the ceilings were to fail or be opened up for the fitting of new lights.
The type of asbestos that has been identified in the loft space is amosite, this is an amphibole asbestos and carries a high element of risk should there be an exposure & should only be removed by a licensed contractor under strict conditions. The use of a contractor from another part of the UK will not effect the cost of removal as no loading is made for distance as all asbestos removal companies are well used to traveling for their work. The contractors we employ are quality checked & audited under very strict criteria & have never let us or our clients down on any contract. If you could like me to add the two companies to the tender list I would be happy to do this but they would have to go through our quality control procedures before we would employ them on a contract for X.
If the works are commissioned I would be happy to send Mr 330 the name of the selected company & the method statement for the proposed works
I hope this will put your residents minds at rest”
I'm guessing from reading this that the work will be required. I'm suspicious of their statement that the cost is likely to be the same no matter who carries out the work. I'll still request the two local contractors I found be included in the tender. Any suggestions anyone?
Thanks
Thank you Tom330 for that information, for as I mentioned in another post, I myself am a shareholder within a management company on a block of leasehold flats. For the last 2 years most of the shareholders monies/savings has been spent for both administration, Health & Safety and Building reports, with a further report planned for the inspection and report on asbestos within the block of flats.
The above is the first and only leasehold flat that I have, and will ever own, never again, for property management, health & safety experts is for me a license to print money, with all these so called experts and their cronies on the look out on how to make further monies from the leaseholders.
I am presently searching the Residential Tribunal case history decisions database for issues I have with my property management company, charges, expenses etc. etc., there are a considerable number of past Tribunal decisions on Asbestos related issues, might offer you some help by searching the same. Thanks again for the info you posted.
http://www.rpts.gov.uk/cgi-bin/rptsSearch?words=ap...
The above is the first and only leasehold flat that I have, and will ever own, never again, for property management, health & safety experts is for me a license to print money, with all these so called experts and their cronies on the look out on how to make further monies from the leaseholders.
I am presently searching the Residential Tribunal case history decisions database for issues I have with my property management company, charges, expenses etc. etc., there are a considerable number of past Tribunal decisions on Asbestos related issues, might offer you some help by searching the same. Thanks again for the info you posted.
http://www.rpts.gov.uk/cgi-bin/rptsSearch?words=ap...
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