Discussion
As I understand it, the 500 engine has ECU-controlled fuel maps (which only Mark Adams knows how to chip up), and stone-age distributor ignition. Correct me if I'm wrong!!
However what I'm not sure about is whether the engine uses multipoint injection or not. If so, then surely it'd be possible to replace the dizzy and Rover ECU with a 'proper' mappable injection/ignition system??
Given the lack of accurate timing all through the rev range of a mechanical distributor, and the oft-voiced opinion that the ECU runs the fuel too lean, I reckon a proper mapped system would increase drivability, fuel economy and performance (in that order - I'm not really desperate for more power yet....)
Anyone here done it?? I'd expect it to be somewhat expensive but what sort of numbers are we talking? Surely someone's already put an Emerald or similar on a Rover V8?
However what I'm not sure about is whether the engine uses multipoint injection or not. If so, then surely it'd be possible to replace the dizzy and Rover ECU with a 'proper' mappable injection/ignition system??
Given the lack of accurate timing all through the rev range of a mechanical distributor, and the oft-voiced opinion that the ECU runs the fuel too lean, I reckon a proper mapped system would increase drivability, fuel economy and performance (in that order - I'm not really desperate for more power yet....)
Anyone here done it?? I'd expect it to be somewhat expensive but what sort of numbers are we talking? Surely someone's already put an Emerald or similar on a Rover V8?
shpub said:
I'm running a DTA system on a John Eales special Rover V8. Budget about £2000 to include the ECU, new wiring loom and other bits and pieces. Fully mapped ignition and mapping.
To be honest unless you have an extreme V8 spec, the mark Adams chipped ECU is pretty good.
For some reason I thought it'd be much more expensive than this. Presumably you mean 2k for the hardware alone - how long would it take to install such a system? (including getting a half-decent map worked out)??
I have sent my emerald back for some additional "stuff" inside as it would not run wasted spark on a v8.I spoke to them yesterday and they were about to map a cerbera and that my ecu would be ready on monday.I can not remeber but I think the ecu cost £700 and they would supply any maps they had for free.I was convinced to get one when Julian Lane told me he fitted one to a 4l chimeara and got an extra 26 hp. David
Cyberface - if you can let us have details of your project and motivation, maybe I can point you in the right direction to achieve your goals. Since I have set up most of the worthwhile systems, I can give you an insight into the pros and cons of each.
Note that Steve's DTA system is optimised for throttle-body injection on a competition engine, and is not ideal for a plenum type road-going vehicle.
Steve's figure of 2K is obviously correct since it is based on experience. Wiring up a system is not too difficult, and typically takes between 2-8 hours depending on the complexity of your chosen system, the standard of finish, and the completeness of any supplied wiring loom.
The thing that usually takes most time is fitting the crankshaft position sensor, because it can involve pulling off the crankshaft pulley to do it.
If you are using a sophisticated system and already have reasonably accurate maps, then you should allow about 6-8 hours on the rolling road to set it up. If you don't know the warm-up, cranking, acceleration maps etc, then these can take several days to sort out. They all vary greatly between individual engines.
I should just point out that the full load power fuel and ignition is about 5% of the work. Making it drive well, idle and warm up properly is the Lion's share of the problem, and is also the area where experience helps out (well over 2,000 engines now - every one different).
Many of the cars with aftermarket management systems that I see, have had the system fitted by intelligent computer-literate owners. However the cars are brought in after they find out how tricky they are to map, and how much equipment you need to do it properly. This is no negative reflection on the owner - quite the reverse in fact.
Personally I never touch my own cars, other than to map them. I know how to do all the work on them, but I'd rather leave it to someone experienced who does them all the time. I have a list of specialists I trust, and that's where they go! The Sierra is in at V8D at the moment for some engine surgery.
Once the system is properly set up, it should never need to be touched again until you modify the engine.
David - the range of improvement on re-programming the standard system (for a 4.0 Litre car) is between 5 and 48BHP. Changing the management system has nothing to do with any observed gains. I have swapped complete management systems for several clients to displace the 14CUX (usually to provide data logging or distributor elimination), and have never seen a power gain if the original system was properly set up.
There is a significant benefit from having mapped ignition, either as a supplement to the original system or as part of a replacement system. Typically it will fatten up the mid-range torque, and extend the useful rev range by up to 700RPM!
14CUX injection is bank-fired, and curiously this has no effect on power output. When I got started with fuel injection, this was a surprise. I expected sequential injection as a matter of course. If you look into it a bit deeper, it turns out that the reason for fully sequential injection is actually for emissions. There is a marginal economy benefit of less than 0.3%.
If you want to go to sequential injection, there is a sting in the tail. To support this mode of operation, you have to install a camshaft position sensor. This enables the management system to know which cylinder is firing, which is also necessary if the system does knock detection. Alternatively you can use semi-sequential injection, where the injectors are fired in pairs. This gives most of the gain without the pain, and also minimises pressure pulses in the fuel rail.
For anyone with a pre-serpentine engine, you have to keep the distributor anyway since it drives your oil pump!
Supplementing the existing 14CUX with a mapped ignition (such as Omex 150), and setting the whole lot up properly is typically half to a third of the cost of replacing it all, and has the advantage that you can do it in stages to ease the burden on your pocket. Since there is then no difference in the result, this is the way a lot of people are going now.
Note that Steve's DTA system is optimised for throttle-body injection on a competition engine, and is not ideal for a plenum type road-going vehicle.
Steve's figure of 2K is obviously correct since it is based on experience. Wiring up a system is not too difficult, and typically takes between 2-8 hours depending on the complexity of your chosen system, the standard of finish, and the completeness of any supplied wiring loom.
The thing that usually takes most time is fitting the crankshaft position sensor, because it can involve pulling off the crankshaft pulley to do it.
If you are using a sophisticated system and already have reasonably accurate maps, then you should allow about 6-8 hours on the rolling road to set it up. If you don't know the warm-up, cranking, acceleration maps etc, then these can take several days to sort out. They all vary greatly between individual engines.
I should just point out that the full load power fuel and ignition is about 5% of the work. Making it drive well, idle and warm up properly is the Lion's share of the problem, and is also the area where experience helps out (well over 2,000 engines now - every one different).
Many of the cars with aftermarket management systems that I see, have had the system fitted by intelligent computer-literate owners. However the cars are brought in after they find out how tricky they are to map, and how much equipment you need to do it properly. This is no negative reflection on the owner - quite the reverse in fact.
Personally I never touch my own cars, other than to map them. I know how to do all the work on them, but I'd rather leave it to someone experienced who does them all the time. I have a list of specialists I trust, and that's where they go! The Sierra is in at V8D at the moment for some engine surgery.
Once the system is properly set up, it should never need to be touched again until you modify the engine.
David - the range of improvement on re-programming the standard system (for a 4.0 Litre car) is between 5 and 48BHP. Changing the management system has nothing to do with any observed gains. I have swapped complete management systems for several clients to displace the 14CUX (usually to provide data logging or distributor elimination), and have never seen a power gain if the original system was properly set up.
There is a significant benefit from having mapped ignition, either as a supplement to the original system or as part of a replacement system. Typically it will fatten up the mid-range torque, and extend the useful rev range by up to 700RPM!
14CUX injection is bank-fired, and curiously this has no effect on power output. When I got started with fuel injection, this was a surprise. I expected sequential injection as a matter of course. If you look into it a bit deeper, it turns out that the reason for fully sequential injection is actually for emissions. There is a marginal economy benefit of less than 0.3%.
If you want to go to sequential injection, there is a sting in the tail. To support this mode of operation, you have to install a camshaft position sensor. This enables the management system to know which cylinder is firing, which is also necessary if the system does knock detection. Alternatively you can use semi-sequential injection, where the injectors are fired in pairs. This gives most of the gain without the pain, and also minimises pressure pulses in the fuel rail.
For anyone with a pre-serpentine engine, you have to keep the distributor anyway since it drives your oil pump!
Supplementing the existing 14CUX with a mapped ignition (such as Omex 150), and setting the whole lot up properly is typically half to a third of the cost of replacing it all, and has the advantage that you can do it in stages to ease the burden on your pocket. Since there is then no difference in the result, this is the way a lot of people are going now.
cyberface said:
For some reason I thought it'd be much more expensive than this. Presumably you mean 2k for the hardware alone - how long would it take to install such a system? (including getting a half-decent map worked out)??
That was the delta for the 520 engine first time round. John Eales set it up on his dyno, ran the engine and shipped the engine shrink wrap which was included in the engine cost. Did include a complete new loom which isn't cheap and multiple ignition coils. Add VAT and the money adds up. I did all of the fitting myself with some help from Tower View. Not rocket science but time consuming.
It was difficult to install because of the work needed to splice it into the existing system. In particular maintaining fuel pump signals and a couple of other things took several fault finding session. Biggest challenge is then doing the mapping which I leave well to the professionals. John does that for me when the enegine is shipped back for a rebuild/upgrade.
Now running the same ECU with an 8 x 55mm throttle body system. One of the major problems is that with this type of ECU you can get really exploit some interesting mods and hardware and kerching kerching your bank balance goes down the tubes!
Thanks for the excellent and informative replies!!
My main motivation was to get properly mapped ignition and I thought a complete replacement ECU would be required. Thanks Mark for pointing out the other option of retaining the standard fuelling ECU and replacing the dizzy with an Omex unit - hadn't thought of that.
Mark - can I e-mail via profile or do you have an alternate mail address??
My main motivation was to get properly mapped ignition and I thought a complete replacement ECU would be required. Thanks Mark for pointing out the other option of retaining the standard fuelling ECU and replacing the dizzy with an Omex unit - hadn't thought of that.
Mark - can I e-mail via profile or do you have an alternate mail address??
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