Z4 Coupe Sport (not M) owners: Why did you choose it?
Discussion
I chose to get a Z4 Coupe Sport not M because:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
- In most day-to-day driving situations the performance of the Sport is much more than adequate!
- The mpg is better
- The service costs are lower
- The insurance costs are lower
- When the warranty expires, it is much cheaper to re-new
- I got a new one for the same price as a used one
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
When the Coupe first came out in summer 2006, I bought a brand new 3.0 because I couldn't justify the additional £10k for the M. Like you, I thought it didn't really matter in the "real world" and convinced myself that the M wasn't worth the extra.
I loved that car. I kept it for almost 2 years and then part-ex'd it for an e46 M3. The M3 engine was incredible but after a few months I realised that the car itself just didn't quite do it for me.
So in April I bought a Z4MC - the perfect blend (in my view) of beautiful car and magnificent engine. It was a bargain - less than a year old, less than 5k miles and £17k below list price. It hasn't lost very much in the meantime (maybe £1500 over 8 months and 9k miles) and I love it.
As far as I can tell, it is a better car than the 3.0 in just about every respect. Lots of little differences that make it well worth spending my money on.
Don't get me wrong, the 3.0 was super - lovely smooth engine, great looks, nice handling, remarkably practical etc - so I'm really not slagging it off.
But the M goes better, stops better, handles better, looks better and sounds better. It's a bargain for the money and the fact that it costs a bit more day to day doesn't matter to me because it is brilliant.
I'm not arguing with your maths. Your yearly running costs will clearly be less than mine. But once you factor in (a) depreciation and (b) that the M is the better car, I'm happy that (for me at least) the difference in daily running costs isn't really as compelling as you suggest.
I loved that car. I kept it for almost 2 years and then part-ex'd it for an e46 M3. The M3 engine was incredible but after a few months I realised that the car itself just didn't quite do it for me.
So in April I bought a Z4MC - the perfect blend (in my view) of beautiful car and magnificent engine. It was a bargain - less than a year old, less than 5k miles and £17k below list price. It hasn't lost very much in the meantime (maybe £1500 over 8 months and 9k miles) and I love it.
As far as I can tell, it is a better car than the 3.0 in just about every respect. Lots of little differences that make it well worth spending my money on.
Don't get me wrong, the 3.0 was super - lovely smooth engine, great looks, nice handling, remarkably practical etc - so I'm really not slagging it off.
But the M goes better, stops better, handles better, looks better and sounds better. It's a bargain for the money and the fact that it costs a bit more day to day doesn't matter to me because it is brilliant.
I'm not arguing with your maths. Your yearly running costs will clearly be less than mine. But once you factor in (a) depreciation and (b) that the M is the better car, I'm happy that (for me at least) the difference in daily running costs isn't really as compelling as you suggest.
wrighty78 said:
It hasn't lost very much in the meantime (maybe £1500 over 8 months and 9k miles) and I love it.
..... But once you factor in (a) depreciation and(b) that the M is the better car, I'm happy that (for me at least) the difference in daily running costs isn't really as compelling as you suggest.
It should be recognised that all second hand cars have seen a resurgence in value over the past 9 months - infact many cars are worth more than they were this time last year (we live in unusual times!); E85/86 M cars depreciate heavily compared to their smaller engined counterparts, and as they become older, servicing, consumables and warranties are going to be significantly more than a non-M car. ..... But once you factor in (a) depreciation and(b) that the M is the better car, I'm happy that (for me at least) the difference in daily running costs isn't really as compelling as you suggest.
For many (including me) the extra costs are worth it; "real world performance" makes most performance cars irrelevant, but, if that's you're passion, then you want the best balance of performance and cost that you can get.
Gary
Edited by gmarks1 on Friday 20th November 12:17
gmarks1 said:
For many (including me) the extra costs are worth it; "real world performance" makes most performance cars irrelevant, but, if that's you're passion, then you want the best balance of performance and cost that you can get.
You've hit the nail on the head, chap. And I agree with you on the price point. Peculiar times indeed.
Edited by wrighty78 on Friday 20th November 12:27
gmarks1 said:
It should be recognised that all second hand cars have seen a resurgence in value over the past 9 months - infact many cars are worth more than they were this time last year (we live in unusual times!)
It's probably the first time ever Joe Punter could have bought almost any secondhand car and re-sold it a year later for the same amount with 10,000 more miles on the clock.However, there have been some recent reports (see Autocar etc) that the market is on the way down again. Whether this is just normal/seasonal depreciation, or the beginning of a recession second-wave remains to be seen.
Funny thing is, I really don't use anywhere close to the limits of the cars I own. I'm currently thinking about changing my daily driver from an E46 330Ci to an E90 3 series; the 330i I'm sure offers everything I need in terms of performance (and if I want to go faster, I've got the Z4), but I just know that when it comes to it, I'll have to buy the 335, even though the running costs and insurance are higher, and longer term, reliability of normally aspirated is almost certainly going to be better than with the twin turbo.
....and if my budgeted stretched to an M3, I'd buy that!
Gary
....and if my budgeted stretched to an M3, I'd buy that!
Gary
Hi Vroomer,
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your reasons for choosing a 3.0 - after all they are your reasons so inherently the right choice for you.
It seems to be that the discussion is around whether there is a discernable difference in performance in the real world, with a number of M owners suggesting there is a noticable difference.
I've never driven the 3.0 so don't know if this is true.
Anyway, they're both gorgeous cars so enjoy!
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your reasons for choosing a 3.0 - after all they are your reasons so inherently the right choice for you.
It seems to be that the discussion is around whether there is a discernable difference in performance in the real world, with a number of M owners suggesting there is a noticable difference.
I've never driven the 3.0 so don't know if this is true.
Anyway, they're both gorgeous cars so enjoy!
I also brought the 3.0Si sport and not the M so you’re not alone. The comparison of the two has caused more pub/forum arguments than I care to recall.
The reason I brought the three litre is that while the M is the better car, it's not £8K better (which was how much more BMW were trying to get out of me for the M).
In real world, there is little between the cars performance wise, it's only when you get above 120 MPH the difference begins to show.
The real reason you buy one is one or a combination of the following reasons:
• The improved steering feel but not having electric steering
• The better ride control by not having run flat tyres
• The benefit of the Limited slip diff
• The extra excitement of that extra 1000 rpm at the top end
• The pub chat benefit of being able to say I drive a “M coupe” rather than saying I drive a “Z4 Coupe 3.0 Si Sport” and then going to explain that it’s not the same car as that nice convertible you mates girlfriend drives.
At the end of the day, a lot of forum warriors get very over excited you mention the M badge and will argue to they're blue in the face that the little M badge instantly makes the car 200 times better than any lesser BMW model (and hence why that badge is stuck to a million 15 years old 316’s).
While that may or may not be the case with the 3 series, where the non-M badged cars are designed to be sporty commuter cars, the Coupe is a sports car which ever model you go for and the difference between the cars isn’t as big as the price differential.
Additionally, the M car isn’t better on every level. The OP already mentioned the whole reliability and cost parts but there are other areas.
Personally I find the 3 litre engine has more personality than the 3.2 M engine. Yes the 3.2 sounds a little nicer a low revs and you have last 1000rpm race for the red line, but work the 3.0 hard and it start popping and burberling on overrun, the run flat tyres and the lighter engine give it a sharp turn in and without the demon tweaks 4 exit exhaust, the battery is moved lower giving you a usable boot.
I can understand people wanting “the best” and that buying a sports car isn’t really about value for money but I personally didn’t feel the differences were worth paying for.
My mate owns the M coupe and when I get a moment I’ll do a full head-to-head write up.
The reason I brought the three litre is that while the M is the better car, it's not £8K better (which was how much more BMW were trying to get out of me for the M).
In real world, there is little between the cars performance wise, it's only when you get above 120 MPH the difference begins to show.
The real reason you buy one is one or a combination of the following reasons:
• The improved steering feel but not having electric steering
• The better ride control by not having run flat tyres
• The benefit of the Limited slip diff
• The extra excitement of that extra 1000 rpm at the top end
• The pub chat benefit of being able to say I drive a “M coupe” rather than saying I drive a “Z4 Coupe 3.0 Si Sport” and then going to explain that it’s not the same car as that nice convertible you mates girlfriend drives.
At the end of the day, a lot of forum warriors get very over excited you mention the M badge and will argue to they're blue in the face that the little M badge instantly makes the car 200 times better than any lesser BMW model (and hence why that badge is stuck to a million 15 years old 316’s).
While that may or may not be the case with the 3 series, where the non-M badged cars are designed to be sporty commuter cars, the Coupe is a sports car which ever model you go for and the difference between the cars isn’t as big as the price differential.
Additionally, the M car isn’t better on every level. The OP already mentioned the whole reliability and cost parts but there are other areas.
Personally I find the 3 litre engine has more personality than the 3.2 M engine. Yes the 3.2 sounds a little nicer a low revs and you have last 1000rpm race for the red line, but work the 3.0 hard and it start popping and burberling on overrun, the run flat tyres and the lighter engine give it a sharp turn in and without the demon tweaks 4 exit exhaust, the battery is moved lower giving you a usable boot.
I can understand people wanting “the best” and that buying a sports car isn’t really about value for money but I personally didn’t feel the differences were worth paying for.
My mate owns the M coupe and when I get a moment I’ll do a full head-to-head write up.
To be fair though in the M forum the first poster was asking
"Im considering the Z4m in either coupe or roadster form as they seem a lot of car for the money can anyone tell me what i should look out for when looking at them"
He wasn't wanting or asking about any others, In the same way i didn't test a 3.0, i wanted an M whether i can use all its 100% power isn't really relevant.
My Audi A2 Tdi is more than suitable for my daily use, that's why i have a sunny day ///M car.
The M vs 3.0 argument will continue over and over again, 3.0 are very nice cars, I drove an Si coupe loaner and I liked it, it just didn't have that wow factor i wanted after my BoxS, the M has it all in bundles, it doesnt make a 3.0 better or worse just a difference....each to their own, we buy with the heart and soul.
"Im considering the Z4m in either coupe or roadster form as they seem a lot of car for the money can anyone tell me what i should look out for when looking at them"
He wasn't wanting or asking about any others, In the same way i didn't test a 3.0, i wanted an M whether i can use all its 100% power isn't really relevant.
My Audi A2 Tdi is more than suitable for my daily use, that's why i have a sunny day ///M car.
The M vs 3.0 argument will continue over and over again, 3.0 are very nice cars, I drove an Si coupe loaner and I liked it, it just didn't have that wow factor i wanted after my BoxS, the M has it all in bundles, it doesnt make a 3.0 better or worse just a difference....each to their own, we buy with the heart and soul.
Vroomer said:
- In most day-to-day driving situations the performance of the Sport is much more than adequate!
- The mpg is better
- The service costs are lower
- The insurance costs are lower
- When the warranty expires, it is much cheaper to re-new
- I got a new one for the same price as a used one
Of course, if the 3.0Si suits you, fine, but what the M offers is beyond numbers and budget sheets. The M is about the stuff you can't quantify easily.
If what the M offers that is not quantifiable is not your thing, it doesn't make the M pointless, it's just not the car for you
I'd love an M one... I won't put my current 3.0i down, because it's a fantastic car, but I have been surprised over the last 10,000 miles how luxurious and compromised for soft people the car ultimately is.
It could bark louder, bite more and harder, and just be a much more aggressive car and be better for it... while still having ALL the same paper stats/costs etc.
I was surprised at how soft it was for a sports car to be honest... a shame in a way that you have to buy the M to get that attitude, but that is where the proper sports car is if you want one!
BMW are a bit retarded really, for making the sport 3.0i still a soft hairdresser compromised car. I wouldn't bother upgrading, even if I could afford it.
Tammy would be where my money goes, at least TVR don't make cars for soft people.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I have been surprised over the last 10,000 miles how luxurious and compromised for soft people the car ultimately is.
I'm interested in what you mean by the car being a bit soft as the Coupe is well known for being a very stiff car, can you elaborate? There are some differences between the 3.0si Coupe and the original 3.0i which I believe your referring to, (chassis stiffness, engine, suspension, steering wheel, seats, alloys and a few other things here and there) I would be surprised if I changed the complete demeanour of the car.
While the car is no TVR, compared to my friends E46 M3, the car is a lot less comfort focused (which in some cases is a bad thing, as the M3 allows you to carry significantly more speed over bad road surfaces) than most BMW's, including the M's.
I agree it's no track day special but neither is the M or any other car with electrically operated seat adjustments.
It's not soft in a setup sense, it's stiff really. Just as standard it's quietly exhausted, very quiet inside so lots of sound deadening, fairly benign in handling for what it is.
It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
My story is similar to others. Last year I bought a 3.0Si and loved it. OK, the car tramlined at every opportunity and the ride was a little harsh. The car had lots of power and torque. I could have had an M for a little more than the Si but I didn't think I could justify the increase in running costs. One year on and my car was in for a warranty repair and walking back to collect it there was an identical but M version of my car parked next to it. A week later I test drove an M and whilst "on paper" the cars appear similar, in reality the M is a vastly superior car.
Having run the M for a couple of months now, I don't notice the decrease in MPG but every trip is an event, a memory to remember.
So my story is that owning the Si has cost me more, had I made the right decision a year ago, I would have not had the cost of change now and had an extra year of enjoyment.
In real terms, the ownership costs of an M are not massive. If you need to worry about the increase in costs then maybe an M isn't worth it for you but in value for money terms the M is a bargain.
Having run the M for a couple of months now, I don't notice the decrease in MPG but every trip is an event, a memory to remember.
So my story is that owning the Si has cost me more, had I made the right decision a year ago, I would have not had the cost of change now and had an extra year of enjoyment.
In real terms, the ownership costs of an M are not massive. If you need to worry about the increase in costs then maybe an M isn't worth it for you but in value for money terms the M is a bargain.
Mr Whippy said:
It's not soft in a setup sense, it's stiff really. Just as standard it's quietly exhausted, very quiet inside so lots of sound deadening, fairly benign in handling for what it is.
It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
OK, speaking as a hairdresser, with cars like the Tam there's too much to get in the way of driving enjoyment - lack of build quality, too much noise, too much posing, tries too hard at appearing to be 'hard' when there's no such thing as a 'hard' road car...It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
The compromises aren't there for poseurs and hairdressers imo, but more for those that understand what driving is all about, and it's not about putting up with short-comings to make a statement.
IMHO of course.
heebeegeetee said:
Mr Whippy said:
It's not soft in a setup sense, it's stiff really. Just as standard it's quietly exhausted, very quiet inside so lots of sound deadening, fairly benign in handling for what it is.
It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
OK, speaking as a hairdresser, with cars like the Tam there's too much to get in the way of driving enjoyment - lack of build quality, too much noise, too much posing, tries too hard at appearing to be 'hard' when there's no such thing as a 'hard' road car...It's a sports car turned up to 6, the m probably 8, but the dial can go up to 11 with either simply though the way they are set up... The raw ingredients have all the potential there! Why not turn it up to 11? It's ok and far from bad, just a shame as it's wasted potential (bmws story these days) sport by name, sport looks, sporty on paper, but lacking actually being a sports car that puts hairs on your chest!
Hard to sum up. Love the car, just it's held back by compromises put in so hairdressers and poseurs will buy it I guess.
If I had the inclination I'd mod it to suit, but why bother when tvr made the tamora? I'm sure even the m would feel a let down after a while because without doubt it is less than it could be just so it fits in bmws stupid strategy where everything is a 'sporty' model, and nothing can stand out and actually be special or as good as it's raw ingredients might allow!
Still good cars, but I still have a roadster itch to scratch and I don't think I'll find what I'm after, unfortunately, with a BMW product...
I can genuinely see why people buy into tvrs and the like!
The compromises aren't there for poseurs and hairdressers imo, but more for those that understand what driving is all about, and it's not about putting up with short-comings to make a statement.
IMHO of course.
Refining out every ounce of interest in every area is what VAG do with most of their cars, and they are dull.
BMW leave some in there, but still take out too much imho.
The M model will clearly retain more character, but it's a frustration that you have to buy the expensive most powerful one to buy into character as well!
Not sure about the negatives of the TVR Tammy, too much noise, well, the 3.0i standard sounds like a 4 pot inside. Very poor imho. Thank god for the sound generator mod otherwise I'd have likely not bought the car (honestly, sound generator was done as soon as I got home!)
Personally, I find the 3.0i a bit thrashy over 5000rpm, and loud, but not a nice loud noise (just a 4 pot sounding blare)... at least a TVR is cultured and loud. (again, I could mod this to taste, but annoying that I have to)
Unreliability. Hardly. There is a long list of faults on the m54b30, and Z4 generally. Snapping springs, DISA failure, corroding alloys, rear drum brakes always being a bit naff... S6 issues aside (which may well be over-exaggerated on the late 3.6s) the Tammy is probably no more or less reliable or expensive to maintain than an M model Z4.
Too much posing? Is that a feature?
Too much trying to be hard? Again, how can a car have the feature of 'trying' to be hard?
It's just a more honest sports car. Simple.
I get out of my Z4 sometimes, and look back expecting to see a 330Ci or something, not a sleek superb looking Roadster. It is a shame because it looks like it should be much more special than it really is.
Why car makers can't just make it so if it has 'sport' in the name it IS sporty, rather than erring towards being like a normal car but with fancy looks... fancy looks don't give you driving satisfaction
Again, it's far from crap, it's actually very good, but you can just feel that it has almost being designed down for wider market appeal, to appeal to people who actually don't want sports cars, just a fancy looking car.
At least the Tamora is honest. It's designed as a sports car. If you are after looks and buy it, you won't like it. Good!
Dave
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