Speeding without "blues & two's"
Discussion
Hi ALL,
On a number of occassion over the past few weeks I have noticed a number of police vehicles speeding and staying in the third lane all the time.
None of thes cars had the lights or horns going. One of them came past me as if I was doing 30mph ( my speed was approx. 80mph). Now in my book that is very poor practice and could be highly dangerous!
One of the cars stayed in the third lane for miles even though the Motorway was very quiet.
I was always told that the police were not above the law.
Cheers
SPS
On a number of occassion over the past few weeks I have noticed a number of police vehicles speeding and staying in the third lane all the time.
None of thes cars had the lights or horns going. One of them came past me as if I was doing 30mph ( my speed was approx. 80mph). Now in my book that is very poor practice and could be highly dangerous!
One of the cars stayed in the third lane for miles even though the Motorway was very quiet.
I was always told that the police were not above the law.
Cheers
SPS
Speed limits do not apply to police vehicles being used on police business;
Section 87, Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984:
'No statutory provision imposing a speed limit ... shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observation of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose to which it is being put at the time'.
Nothing there about blues and twos, marked vehicles or any of the other myths.
Traffic lights and give way signs have different exemptions which are laid down in the Traffic Signs Regulations 1994.
Section 87, Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984:
'No statutory provision imposing a speed limit ... shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observation of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose to which it is being put at the time'.
Nothing there about blues and twos, marked vehicles or any of the other myths.
Traffic lights and give way signs have different exemptions which are laid down in the Traffic Signs Regulations 1994.
tonyrec said:
If im 'Speeding' (travelling at excess speed) on the Motorway whilst driving a Police vehicle, i always tend to stay in the Outside lane.
It is by far the safest place for me to be whether or not im using Blues and Two's.
It's an extremely dangerous practice IMO and should be stopped. What if a driver mis-judged your high speed and pulled out!!!
volvod5_dude said:Given my experiences I would say that very few drivers bother to judge speed these days ... they just pull out!
If im 'Speeding' (travelling at excess speed) on the Motorway whilst driving a Police vehicle, i always tend to stay in the Outside lane.
It is by far the safest place for me to be whether or not im using Blues and Two's.
It's an extremely dangerous practice IMO and should be stopped. What if a driver mis-judged your high speed and pulled out!!!
This is probably another consequence of speed limits; despite many drivers exceeding the limits there appears to be an ingrained idea that everyone (else) is driving at or under the limit ... so it's safe to pull out with (at best) a cursory glance in the mirror. Oh, and there's no need to accelerate either!
It used to be that people only underestimated the progress being made by my Jeep (I guess that if they thought at all, the thought was, "It's a diesel 4X4, they're not quick." - WRONG! it's a 4 litre petrol with 0-60 in under 9 seconds and a top speed considerably in excess of the NSL). Now, they don't appear to care about the possible speed at which the Tiv might be travelling ... or do they just think my reactions and brakes are better than theirs?
(Tony) if you're in an unmarked (or even a marked - given a previous comments of yours) patrol car or bike I would suggest that your training might be in constant demand to avoid serious consequences when driving at above the limit without audible and visible warnings.
Streaky
volvod5_dude said:
If im 'Speeding' (travelling at excess speed) on the Motorway whilst driving a Police vehicle, i always tend to stay in the Outside lane.
It is by far the safest place for me to be whether or not im using Blues and Two's.
It's an extremely dangerous practice IMO and should be stopped. What if a driver mis-judged your high speed and pulled out!!!
If Tony's in L3 passing traffic in L1 with L2 clear he's massively safe from the traffic in L1. Tony can reduce speed by 20mph per second and it takes at least 8 seconds for a vehicle to move from L1 into an obstructing position in L3. So if Tony sees a vehicle in L1 start to move he can reduce speed by at least 140mph before the vehicles come into a conflicting position.
If Tony's in L3 passing traffic in L2, the same applies to a lesser extent. It will still take a good three seconds for an L2 vehicle to obstruct L3. If Tony is paying attention then he can shed at least 40mph in those three seconds (i.e. 1 second thinking, 2 seconds braking).
However it is generally unwise to pass vehicles on a motorway in an adjacent lane at much more than 30mph above their speed. We need a margin for error.
With a full free lane between, adequate margins exist even with 100mph speed differential.
Of course if L3 is clear ahead, simply being in L3 may also enhance vision.
The rule about keeping left exists because of the needs of faster traffic. If Tony's the fastest thing on the motorway he hardly needs to worry about the needs of faster traffic.
However if Tony is looking for the safest place at speed on an empty motorway, I'd suggest L2. Even on a motorway danger can come from either side, and it's good to have a nice lateral margin so the you see a hazard before it obstructs your path. Another advantage for L2 is that you can safely steer in either direction if something (literally) falls into your path or debris appears ahead.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
safespeed said:
However if Tony is looking for the safest place at speed on an empty motorway, I'd suggest L2. Even on a motorway danger can come from either side, and it's good to have a nice lateral margin so the you see a hazard before it obstructs your path. Another advantage for L2 is that you can safely steer in either direction if something (literally) falls into your path or debris appears ahead.
Having done a RideDrive course they taught me to always look for an escape route to the hard shoulder. I.E If your in L1 you could go to L2 or the hardshoulder.
Even while overtaking in L3 you should always be able to get back to L1 safely if needed.
The only thing that matters is that police officers can stop in the distance they can see to be clear. Marked or unmarked, at limit, or above it, they DO NOt want a collision.
They will, therefore, be constantly using their forward vision to deal with hazards as they present themselves.
To suggest BIB should not exceed the limit while on operational duties is just plain daft.
They will, therefore, be constantly using their forward vision to deal with hazards as they present themselves.
To suggest BIB should not exceed the limit while on operational duties is just plain daft.
pmanson said:
However if Tony is looking for the safest place at speed on an empty motorway, I'd suggest L2. Even on a motorway danger can come from either side, and it's good to have a nice lateral margin so the you see a hazard before it obstructs your path. Another advantage for L2 is that you can safely steer in either direction if something (literally) falls into your path or debris appears ahead.
Having done a RideDrive course they taught me to always look for an escape route to the hard shoulder. I.E If your in L1 you could go to L2 or the hardshoulder.
Even while overtaking in L3 you should always be able to get back to L1 safely if needed.
I agree that's good advice, but regard the hard shoulder as the last refuge. The hard shoulder is a potentially dangerous place with debris, possible pedestrians and possible stationary vehicles.
In the example given - an empty motorway - I'd still recommend L2 for high speed work.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
safespeed said:
If Tony's in L3 passing traffic in L1 with L2 clear he's massively safe from the traffic in L1. Tony can reduce speed by 20mph per second and it takes at least 8 seconds for a vehicle to move from L1 into an obstructing position in L3.
safespeed said:
If Tony's in L3 passing traffic in L2, the same applies to a lesser extent. It will still take a good three seconds for an L2 vehicle to obstruct L3.
Paul
I hate to disagree with someone with whom I generally agree, but having read the above remarks I felt I had to check them out.
Using a digital stop-watch (operated by passenger and avoiding risk to other traffic) and counting from start of manoever to occupying final lane, the average of five manoevers of each type was:
From L1 to L3 at 30mph - 4.8 seconds
From L1 to L3 at 70mph - 3.1 seconds
From L1 to L2 at 70mph - 1.2 seconds (once recorded 0.74s, but very twitchy on damp road).
The driving style employed was somewhat akin to the "zip in and out- undertake/overtake" manoever seen on Motorways - as this presents the most danger to overtaking vehicles in L3.
Bear in mind that the vehicle does not have to fully obstruct L3, it just has to intrude enough.
Streaky
Nothing here is intended to criticise Tony's ability, nor Paul's arithmetic. I just wasn't convinced by the figures.
I fully appreciate the comments and everyone has their own opinion.
I feel safest in the o/s lane when travelling at speed without a doubt and i base this fully and unreservedly on experience that i have gained in the last 10 years of Motorway patrols.
You certainly have to raise your vision, not a couple of hundred yards but straight to the horizon and always expect the unexpected.
The main problems that i encounter with 'other' motorists is that their vision is absolutely appalling, ranging from literally 2 metres all the way up to a distance which is normally not sufficient.
I feel safest in the o/s lane when travelling at speed without a doubt and i base this fully and unreservedly on experience that i have gained in the last 10 years of Motorway patrols.
You certainly have to raise your vision, not a couple of hundred yards but straight to the horizon and always expect the unexpected.
The main problems that i encounter with 'other' motorists is that their vision is absolutely appalling, ranging from literally 2 metres all the way up to a distance which is normally not sufficient.
streaky said:
From L1 to L3 at 30mph - 4.8 seconds
From L1 to L3 at 70mph - 3.1 seconds
From L1 to L2 at 70mph - 1.2 seconds (once recorded 0.74s, but very twitchy on damp road).
The driving style employed was somewhat akin to the "zip in and out- undertake/overtake" manoever seen on Motorways - as this presents the most danger to overtaking vehicles in L3.
Bear in mind that the vehicle does not have to fully obstruct L3, it just has to intrude enough.
That's very interesting. I admit I was quoting from memory from some calculations and observations I carried out years ago.
I'll try to find my notes and see what's up. If not I'll repeat the observations myself.
Off the top of my head, the difference may be between a "normal" lane change and a vehicle "swerving about". Obviously if we do see a vehicle swerving about we can and should give a greater margin. However, I'd like to adopt a speed and a position with a good margin of safety from even a vehicle put into a sudden spin by a tyre failure.
Standby...
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
tonyrec said:Well, if we were allowed to drive at speeds above 70mph, we'd agree
I feel safest in the o/s lane when travelling at speed without a doubt ...
. tonyrec said:Fully agree.
You certainly have to raise your vision, not a couple of hundred yards but straight to the horizon and always expect the unexpected.
tonyrec said:As far ahead as two metres ... must have long bonnets on their motors
The main problems that i encounter with 'other' motorists is that their vision is absolutely appalling, ranging from literally 2 metres all the way up to a distance which is normally not sufficient.
. Streaky
Interesting excerpt from the 'letter of the law' above. If that's true - that speed limits do not apply to emergency services vehicles on official business - then why was there all that fuss late last year about the ambulance driver who got gatso'd while delivering some vital organs?
Was he not on official business?
Was he not on official business?
keitht1 said:
Interesting excerpt from the 'letter of the law' above. If that's true - that speed limits do not apply to emergency services vehicles on official business - then why was there all that fuss late last year about the ambulance driver who got gatso'd while delivering some vital organs?
Was he not on official business?
He wasn't in an official "ambulance" it was an estate car (It did have blue lights IIRC) and they were questioning whether or not is was an ambulance because it wasn't carrying a person only organs.
Anyone know what happened to this? Did it ever go to court?
pmanson said:
Interesting excerpt from the 'letter of the law' above. If that's true - that speed limits do not apply to emergency services vehicles on official business - then why was there all that fuss late last year about the ambulance driver who got gatso'd while delivering some vital organs?
Was he not on official business?
He wasn't in an official "ambulance" it was an estate car (It did have blue lights IIRC) and they were questioning whether or not is was an ambulance because it wasn't carrying a person only organs.
Anyone know what happened to this? Did it ever go to court?
IIRC the CPS withdrew their prosecution.
I saw a fully marked police car use the hard shoulder recently to avoid a hold up on the other carriageways - one of the usual traffic snarl ups with no particular cause. He was in front of me when the traffic slowed down and when he pulled on to the hard shoulder I thought he must be pulling over for the cause of the delay. I was amazed to see him pulling back out a little while later, a few cars in front and nothing on the hard shoulder. I would have reported it but I wasn't close enough to get a number or anything.
In a similar way, yesterday I saw a local cop in an Astra using a mobile phone whilst driving - he got reported by me but, surprise surprise, denied the accusation.
In a similar way, yesterday I saw a local cop in an Astra using a mobile phone whilst driving - he got reported by me but, surprise surprise, denied the accusation.
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