Royal Navy to be Privatised

[Eric Mc]

Well - part of it.

The treasury are pushing the MOD to sell off the Royal Fleet Auxilliary.

Should our front line defence forces be dependent on private companies and civillians in combat situations?

What obligations are civillians under to obey orders when contracted to the military?

What rights do they have to refuse such an order?

What types of compensation are they entitled to if injured or even killed in battle?

Where do they satnd "rank" wise? Who obeys whom?

What type of legal mess would have been created if the Sir Gallahad had been a civilian vessel?

Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 8th December 08:57

[TeamD]

Don't worry Eric, they'll be banned from putting to sea to reduce CO2 emmissions before long.

[shirt]

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

[BruceV8]

Hmmm, interesting questions.

I do know that when I was in Cyprus there were about 1500 RAF people and 4 helicopters. Obviously a bit bloated and something needed to be cut. So what was privatised? Yep - the helicopter Squadron. Well, the aircraft maintenance and support bit of it anyway. But it meant that the remaining 1300 RAF people on the station had nothing whatever to do with aircraft. It was just a massive self-licking lolly.

[Oakey]

Eric Mc said:

Well - part of it.

The treasury are pushing the MOD to sell off the Royal Fleet Auxilliary.

Should our front line defence forces be dependent on private companies and civillians in combat situations?

What obligations are civillians under to obey orders when contracted to the military?

What rights do they have to refuse such an order?

What types of compensation are they entitled to if injured or even killed in battle?

Where do they satnd "rank" wise? Who obeys whom?

What type of legal mess would have been created if the Sir Gallahad had been a civilian vessel?

Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 8th December 08:57

Funnily enough I've just finished reading 'Blackwater - The Rise of the Worlds Most Powerful Mercenary Army' and that answers some of your questions.

What obligations are civillians under to obey orders when contracted to the military? - In the case of Blackwater, none

What rights do they have to refuse such an order? - They have lots of rights, including impunity from prosecution from all sorts of crimes. Like murder

What types of compensation are they entitled to if injured or even killed in battle? - Blackwater has insurance for its mercenaries

Where do they satnd "rank" wise? Who obeys whom? - In some situations in Iraq Blackwater actually took command over military personnel during a firefight

[bga]

IIRC RFA are civvies anyway. They do however come under military rule in certain circumstances. Unless that changes then they are effectively doing the same job.

[V88Dicky]

bga said:

IIRC RFA are civvies anyway. They do however come under military rule in certain circumstances. Unless that changes then they are effectively doing the same job.

Yep, RFA ships are manned predominently by civilian personnel, augmented by members of the RN for technical support for such things as aircraft, weapon systems etc.

[Engineer1]

Privatisation of Military support functions has been suggested before, repair functions for all arms was one. The issue is that I can't see civilian contractors putting themselves in harms way in the same way a military employee would.

[Fittster]

Engineer1 said:

The issue is that I can't see civilian contractors putting themselves in harms way in the same way a military employee would.

A couple of people who were kidnapped on their yacht might say the same thing about the current navy.

[ninja-lewis]

bga said:

IIRC RFA are civvies anyway. They do however come under military rule in certain circumstances. Unless that changes then they are effectively doing the same job.

Yes - I can't see any of the questions posed by Eric being different. We've already had the Sir Galahad issue in Atlantic Conveyor for example.

The MOD already charter the Point Class sea lift ships under PFI so they're technically not part of the RFA either. However, the crews are required to be reserves and may work under the Naval Discipline Act like the RFA on warlike operations. The FSTA A330 tankers for the RAF are supposed to be on a similar deal.

[Uncle Fester]

And now a word from our sponsors.

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[thatone1967]

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Short term fix...

[shirt]

having thought about it, in a peacetime situation i don;t have a problem with this. after all the RFA is basically a logistics organisation - fuel & supplies etc. if one company were to subcontract to NATO then they'd probably end up with a decent deal [disregarding mil procurement logic for a second].

in wartime, i understand the navy can comandeer what they like [e.g. north sea ferries for falklands transport etc] so it'd be business as usual.

Edited by shirt on Tuesday 8th December 14:54

[Gaspode]

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Or indeed any publicly-owned entity. Remember how we were told that privatising the electricity industry would lead to lower prices for the consumer? So why is it that we are paying 12p/KWh for our electricity, but in France, home of supposedly bloated inefficient nationalised electricity industry, the consumer pays the equivalent of 7p/KWh?

[Jimbeaux]

I know some Blackwater guys. On the whole, I suggest staying clear of such things.

[thatone1967]

Gaspode said:

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Or indeed any publicly-owned entity. Remember how we were told that privatising the electricity industry would lead to lower prices for the consumer? So why is it that we are paying 12p/KWh for our electricity, but in France, home of supposedly bloated inefficient nationalised electricity industry, the consumer pays the equivalent of 7p/KWh?

ah...but that would be because the oil has to travel further from the middle east... oh and of course... "rip off Britain"....

[ninja-lewis]

Gaspode said:

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Or indeed any publicly-owned entity. Remember how we were told that privatising the electricity industry would lead to lower prices for the consumer? So why is it that we are paying 12p/KWh for our electricity, but in France, home of supposedly bloated inefficient nationalised electricity industry, the consumer pays the equivalent of 7p/KWh?

Does the French taxpayer subsidise those prices though? They might have lower energy bills but it doesn't mean much if their tax bills are correspondingly higher.

[dilbert]

Eric Mc said:

Well - part of it.

The treasury are pushing the MOD to sell off the Royal Fleet Auxilliary.

Should our front line defence forces be dependent on private companies and civillians in combat situations?

What obligations are civillians under to obey orders when contracted to the military?

What rights do they have to refuse such an order?

What types of compensation are they entitled to if injured or even killed in battle?

Where do they satnd "rank" wise? Who obeys whom?

What type of legal mess would have been created if the Sir Gallahad had been a civilian vessel?

Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 8th December 08:57

There is only one good thing about this;

It means that virtually no-one in England can look as if they are doing more harm to the country than the well paid government officials who thunk this up.

[Eric Mc]

ninja-lewis said:

Gaspode said:

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Or indeed any publicly-owned entity. Remember how we were told that privatising the electricity industry would lead to lower prices for the consumer? So why is it that we are paying 12p/KWh for our electricity, but in France, home of supposedly bloated inefficient nationalised electricity industry, the consumer pays the equivalent of 7p/KWh?

Does the French taxpayer subsidise those prices though? They might have lower energy bills but it doesn't mean much if their tax bills are correspondingly higher.

I think you might find that the UK customers of the utility companies subsidise their French customers. Many of our utilities are now French owned.

[B Oeuf]

shirt said:

whats the rationale behind this? i never understand why the government thinks privatising such entities is going to be cheaper.

Depends what is being civilianised, for example. Avionics 3rd line repair at a well known RAF base employs a J Eng Officer, WO, couple of Sgts, few Cpls and 10 J/Ts and SACs all on nice big pensions and with accomodation etc etc. It gets contracted out to a foreign company, becomes The Regional Avionics Repair Facility, has a Manager, 2 chargehands and 4 techs who bolster the minimum wage with their forces pension. R
Result? massive, massive saving