HELP - tactics to defend alleged speeding charge??
Discussion
Guys,
I would very much like your opinion on the following scenario, apologies for the length of the post but its been going on a while now. Here goes:
I lent my car to an ex-tenant several times as he was in the process of moving back home to germany & was getting rid of his possessions.
Received NIP in mid september to say my vehicle had been flashed (by mobile van as i later found out), by the time i found it buried in the mail & opened it my tenant had moved out and i hadnt bothered getting forwarding details as he was all paid up with everything. I suspected it was he who was driving and rang plods which was when i found out it was for 80 in a 40!!! This was a worry as i had no forwarding details - especially as plod also said that the photo was the back of the car so there was no way they could blow it up and help me estabish the driver and that they would throw the book at me!!
As i had no way to contact him i returned the form unsigned giving my details as reg keeper as it was the only way i could think of to avoid me having to actually confess something i didnt do.
received a letter in oct to say naughty naughty someone anonymously returned your form, stating that they would send another NIP and if i did not supply a signed response as required by statute then proceedings will be instigated against me for a failure to respond.
received 2nd NIP and did nothing as im not admitting my own guilt when its not me yet i had no way to provide the details of the driver who was my ex-tenant, so ignored it on the basis that i had already complied with the statute by returning the form and that nowhere in the RTOA does it say i have to sign the form.
I have now been contacted by my ex-tenant and he agrees he was driving that day and has given me his details in germany. my worrys is if i return his details now to plod am i likely to still get done for s172? can i still be done for the speeding offence? what will happen to my ex-tenants licence?
am i better to sit on this info and keep it up my sleeve?
I also have another potential avenue which could avoid the need for me to involve someone else and start sending forms with my signature on that are out of time - following Jeffrey Archers posts re 2nd class post & NIP's i searched for the envelope for my first NIP, (the second NIP was sent 2nd class for sure) I found a brown envelope from the Plods clearly marked 2nd class postage paid with no postmark on it. as it has no postmark i cannot be sure exactly when this was sent so is there any way to establish from the little red barcode type marks in a row on the front of the envelope from plods what the date/time of the posting was? does anyone know what these little red marks mean on the front of the plods postage paid envelopes?
It occurs to me that if the plods have mistakenly forgotten to frank this envelope before sending it then as i cant remember receiving any communications form the plods re anything but this alleged traffic offence they have no way to prove they sent me the nip first class and as im holding 2 x 2nd class envelopes from the plod and ive received 2 NIPS from them for the same alleged offence it may be rather possible for me to head this off without even ever having to involve other people as they ve failed to observe correct legal process making the whole thing invalid.
Can anyone offer any advice on this predicament and the most effective route to resolution of the problem given these circumstances?
many thanks in advance!!
I would very much like your opinion on the following scenario, apologies for the length of the post but its been going on a while now. Here goes:
I lent my car to an ex-tenant several times as he was in the process of moving back home to germany & was getting rid of his possessions.
Received NIP in mid september to say my vehicle had been flashed (by mobile van as i later found out), by the time i found it buried in the mail & opened it my tenant had moved out and i hadnt bothered getting forwarding details as he was all paid up with everything. I suspected it was he who was driving and rang plods which was when i found out it was for 80 in a 40!!! This was a worry as i had no forwarding details - especially as plod also said that the photo was the back of the car so there was no way they could blow it up and help me estabish the driver and that they would throw the book at me!!
As i had no way to contact him i returned the form unsigned giving my details as reg keeper as it was the only way i could think of to avoid me having to actually confess something i didnt do.
received a letter in oct to say naughty naughty someone anonymously returned your form, stating that they would send another NIP and if i did not supply a signed response as required by statute then proceedings will be instigated against me for a failure to respond.
received 2nd NIP and did nothing as im not admitting my own guilt when its not me yet i had no way to provide the details of the driver who was my ex-tenant, so ignored it on the basis that i had already complied with the statute by returning the form and that nowhere in the RTOA does it say i have to sign the form.
I have now been contacted by my ex-tenant and he agrees he was driving that day and has given me his details in germany. my worrys is if i return his details now to plod am i likely to still get done for s172? can i still be done for the speeding offence? what will happen to my ex-tenants licence?
am i better to sit on this info and keep it up my sleeve?
I also have another potential avenue which could avoid the need for me to involve someone else and start sending forms with my signature on that are out of time - following Jeffrey Archers posts re 2nd class post & NIP's i searched for the envelope for my first NIP, (the second NIP was sent 2nd class for sure) I found a brown envelope from the Plods clearly marked 2nd class postage paid with no postmark on it. as it has no postmark i cannot be sure exactly when this was sent so is there any way to establish from the little red barcode type marks in a row on the front of the envelope from plods what the date/time of the posting was? does anyone know what these little red marks mean on the front of the plods postage paid envelopes?
It occurs to me that if the plods have mistakenly forgotten to frank this envelope before sending it then as i cant remember receiving any communications form the plods re anything but this alleged traffic offence they have no way to prove they sent me the nip first class and as im holding 2 x 2nd class envelopes from the plod and ive received 2 NIPS from them for the same alleged offence it may be rather possible for me to head this off without even ever having to involve other people as they ve failed to observe correct legal process making the whole thing invalid.
Can anyone offer any advice on this predicament and the most effective route to resolution of the problem given these circumstances?
many thanks in advance!!
You mixed yourself a bottle when you returned the form with your name as Reg Keeper and which should have shown the actual drivers details.A saving is that you didn't sign.
What to do? Two avenues.
(1) Sit tight, do nothing and let the Process Authority incur the law in an attempt to get you for speeding or failing to name at a Mags Court.Doesn't need me to highlight the problems as they are self evident. It will start to look good in the middle of April, 2004 if you haven't heard anything. Middle of Sept 2004 even better.
OR
(2) Get a signed letter, in duplicate, from your friend in Germany with his full details, that he had been lent the vehicle by you and admitting that he was the Driver at the time of the offence. This letter, together with any other evidence that you can show that it was impossible for you to be the driver should be sent forthwith back to the authorities with a covering letter from you pointing out the mistake, why and the reason for the delay in replying. Honesty may make the day and all accepted and matter dropped.As an Insurance keep one of the original duplicate letters in case needed if a Court case ensues - better still
Herr Friend to attend but there again he enters the lions den. Hey he got you into this as a friend he should get you out.
As to NOIP, Plod will have a record of when and how it was sent and as the law states will be deemed to have been sent within time until the contrary is proved. It should have been sent out by Recorded delivery, Registered Post or FIRST CLASS POST. So unless you have substantive and irrefutable evidence that Plod did not comply that avenue looks closed.
The second and third postages you are holding on to can be sent by second class post as NOIP date well past and they will not rely on this in any proceedings. Its the first letter that matters.
DVD
What to do? Two avenues.
(1) Sit tight, do nothing and let the Process Authority incur the law in an attempt to get you for speeding or failing to name at a Mags Court.Doesn't need me to highlight the problems as they are self evident. It will start to look good in the middle of April, 2004 if you haven't heard anything. Middle of Sept 2004 even better.
OR
(2) Get a signed letter, in duplicate, from your friend in Germany with his full details, that he had been lent the vehicle by you and admitting that he was the Driver at the time of the offence. This letter, together with any other evidence that you can show that it was impossible for you to be the driver should be sent forthwith back to the authorities with a covering letter from you pointing out the mistake, why and the reason for the delay in replying. Honesty may make the day and all accepted and matter dropped.As an Insurance keep one of the original duplicate letters in case needed if a Court case ensues - better still
Herr Friend to attend but there again he enters the lions den. Hey he got you into this as a friend he should get you out.
As to NOIP, Plod will have a record of when and how it was sent and as the law states will be deemed to have been sent within time until the contrary is proved. It should have been sent out by Recorded delivery, Registered Post or FIRST CLASS POST. So unless you have substantive and irrefutable evidence that Plod did not comply that avenue looks closed.
The second and third postages you are holding on to can be sent by second class post as NOIP date well past and they will not rely on this in any proceedings. Its the first letter that matters.
DVD
Why cant you just send it back with the guy in germany nominated as driver?
Thats what its asking for isnt it?
Youre now in a position to give the plods the info that you didnt have before.
From what youve said, you filled in your name as keeper, but didnt sign it. So who's name went on the original nip as driver?
If no driver was nominated then id be inclined to just return it with the correct details and the address of the guy in Germany, after all, he was driving!
Oh btw, theres no legal requirement to give a signature, and its NOT on statute that you must sign it. Theyre liars if they say otherwise.
>> Edited by deltaf on Tuesday 27th January 16:45
Thats what its asking for isnt it?
Youre now in a position to give the plods the info that you didnt have before.
From what youve said, you filled in your name as keeper, but didnt sign it. So who's name went on the original nip as driver?
If no driver was nominated then id be inclined to just return it with the correct details and the address of the guy in Germany, after all, he was driving!
Oh btw, theres no legal requirement to give a signature, and its NOT on statute that you must sign it. Theyre liars if they say otherwise.
>> Edited by deltaf on Tuesday 27th January 16:45
not friend - ex-tenant but he was an ok bloke hence why i lent him car. with a signed letter from my ex-tenant in germany can they require him to appear in court in england to answer the charges and find him guilty in his absence if he doesnt turn up etc etc etc?
the reason i ask is that if they can there is no way he will do it as the reason he got in touch with me was to ask my advice on trips to australia - he's off to oz travelling and theres no way he'll put himself in the firing line on a speeding charge if it'll get in the way of that, if they wont chase him to germany then im sure he'll oblige.
the reason i ask is that if they can there is no way he will do it as the reason he got in touch with me was to ask my advice on trips to australia - he's off to oz travelling and theres no way he'll put himself in the firing line on a speeding charge if it'll get in the way of that, if they wont chase him to germany then im sure he'll oblige.
worried said:He was driving at the time. Put his name and address on the form and return it. You have then discharged your responsibilities as RK. Why take any hit for someone else? It's unlikely that they'll pursue him, but if they do, it's no skin off your nose. Don't include the letter, keep that in case they ask for further proof - Streaky (I am not a lawyer - does "IANAL" exist as an 'approved' acronym for this? If not, let's invent it.)
not friend - ex-tenant but he was an ok bloke hence why i lent him car. with a signed letter from my ex-tenant in germany can they require him to appear in court in england to answer the charges and find him guilty in his absence if he doesnt turn up etc etc etc?
the reason i ask is that if they can there is no way he will do it as the reason he got in touch with me was to ask my advice on trips to australia - he's off to oz travelling and theres no way he'll put himself in the firing line on a speeding charge if it'll get in the way of that, if they wont chase him to germany then im sure he'll oblige.
As far as I am aware, as yet, there is no procedure for serving a summons for speeding offence committed in UK on a person resident in Germany.
Understand however that EEC are looking at this to make it possible.
Tony Rec, darn sarf, will no doubt have had dealings with EEC HGVers and may be able to advise if he has had dealings and other than collar feeling in UK under PACE, any body served summons in EEC.?
DVD
Understand however that EEC are looking at this to make it possible.
Tony Rec, darn sarf, will no doubt have had dealings with EEC HGVers and may be able to advise if he has had dealings and other than collar feeling in UK under PACE, any body served summons in EEC.?
DVD
There is no procedure to prosecute speeding drivers from the EU in their home countries. I ran my BMWs on Cologne plates for more than a year and was flashed numerous times along the A2 and A20 on my way to the ferry. Never received a thing - it is not cost effective for the UK plod to chase the paperwork to Germany.
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