Help any suggestions?

[mep12345]

Some may remember I said the other week that I spun on a roundabout I drive regularly and much faster than I was going that day. I also said that the car just flipped without any progressive loss of grip - well ever since then I have been rather careful but have really thought the car has felt looser than normal with a lot more body roll than I would have expected but really wasn't sure that it wasn't just me being cautious, however today I have weaved the car up and down my cul-de-sac several; times and the car is definitely loose and definitely rolling more than usual and seems to steer from the rear. My missus couldn't see anything obvious when watching me "weaving" other than the excess roll

I have had the back end apart a couple of times and inspected it but can't find any reason so any help from people who have experienced similar issues previously may be of help.

Things I have checked are:

1. Shocks under 12 months old Gaz Standard - set at 8 clicks (20 click total)
2. springs same age and still pristine.
3. Trailing arms seem in tact, 1 is actually a replacement and is nearly new (offside as normal)
4. Bushes in trailing arms ought to be done but wouldn't have expected sudden change if it was these
5. Changed two loose wheel studs following some pikeys trying to nick my wheels, getting disturbed and leaving two nuts loose which I drove on until I heard the knocking noise, loosening up the studs.
6. Wheel bearings seem ok and there is no noise or movement in the wheel when tested like MOT tester does (spinning and rocking)
7. No signs of unusual tyre wear although not many miles done recently
8. Chassis mounts for trailing arm and shock look ok and I can't move them at all by pulling and pushing by hand (looking for wall thinning from inside)
9. No signs of chassis failure visible (cracks rust holes etc)

Is there anything I've missed? Tomorrow I am going to take it to my oppo who's an MOT tester and get it put on the hydraulic "shaker" device that tests for bush movement in the MOT but any pointers to look for when there would be good

Thanks

Mark

[chris52]

Hi Mark when you spun did you clip the kirb? have you checked tyre pressures as the pressure can reduce slightly with the cold weather we are having at the moment. Other than that its a case of getting the geometry checked to see if anything has gone out of alignment

Chris

[mep12345]

chris52 said:

Hi Mark when you spun did you clip the kirb? have you checked tyre pressures as the pressure can reduce slightly with the cold weather we are having at the moment. Other than that its a case of getting the geometry checked to see if anything has gone out of alignment

Chris

No didn't hit anything, was very lucky and ended up sat in middle of road part of roundabout just facing the wrong way. Tyre pressures are at 18psi cold (normally 20-22psi) but the drop here is not enough to give the effect I am seeing and as they are even I don't think they would give me the "rear steer" effect

Cheers

Mark

[Barkychoc]

I had a rear trailing arm bush gone - and while man handling the arm only showed a tiny bit of play with some serious pulling you could feel that it felt very woolly on corners, particularly with changes of direction.

What's more significant is that when I stripped the trailing arms all 4 bushes were shot - and this is on a car that overall has turned out to be surprisingly good during the resto process with very few nasty surprises - I bet there are lot's of S's with dodgy trailing arm bushes out there.

These bushes are nowhere near as difficult to get out as you would think - especially if they have had it.
I had to saw 2 of the bolts through - I then used a 3 legged puller to push the middle out (which took pretty much zero effort), then cold chiselled the outer out of the arm (I think I part cut them through with a hacksaw first).
I then got a local caravan dealer to fit the new ones using a hydraulic press - he charged me £20 + Vat.

Some pics

Sawn off trailing arm bolt as it wouldn't come undone



This was the state of the knackered bush - this is how it was I didn't damage this getting it out.
You can see the corrosion (rust!) on that centre shaft.



Here's the other bushes - note none of the bush cores were attached to the rubber anymore - they just pushed out.



Incidentally if its an issue you can do the bushes without undoing that chuffing tight hub nut - though I'd recommend you strip & rebuild the arms properly while they are off.

I hope this helps - the other thing to consider is what tyres are you running?

Edited by Barkychoc on Monday 28th December 16:52

[mep12345]

For Further Info:

Tyres are goodyear eagle F1s, good tread under 24 months old and in good condition. Normally feel very very stable. I also run 17" wheels so they are 215/45R17 front and 225/45 R17 rear.

If it is the bushes, hopefully the "shaker" will show up any movement tomorrow.

Edited by mep12345 on Monday 28th December 17:52

[clarenceboddiger]

Could you have driven the car long enough with loose wheel nuts for the studs to open up the holes in the wheels?

[mep12345]

clarenceboddiger said:

Could you have driven the car long enough with loose wheel nuts for the studs to open up the holes in the wheels?

I did think this originally when I spun, but before the spin (the drive back from the football pitch - see below) the car still felt tight even though the wheel nuts must have been loose (I reckon I drove 30-40 miles like it as it was me that disturbed the Pikeys - not that I realised it at the time (explanation below). The studs definitely have marked the holes as they have formed a visible "thread pattern" on the alloy, but the holes where the loose nuts were are still round and still measure the same diameter (as the others) using and internal micrometer. The nuts also seem to tighten down ok and hold the wheel. Perhaps I need to swap front for rear and see whether it makes a difference to the handling that will rule this one out or in as the case may be.

How did I disturb the Pikeys and not realise it. It happened when I was at a football match (I referee junior football) and 2 Refs turned up. My car was parked out of sight of the pitch which I don't like, so I let the other Ref do the game and decided to go home, as I walked around the corner of the building that hid my car there was a Subaru parked next to it with the boot open and 2 blokes in their mid 20s looking around the S as if admiring it. As I got into the car and drove off a third bloke walked up to them from the corner of the building round which I had come. Their behaviour wasn't immediately suspicious and a couple of comments along the lines of "nice motor" also helped them appear to be admirers, but having later found the loose wheel nuts I believe the third bloke was a spotter giving the first two time to "look normal" when people came into sight. This happened in a school car park as well so I didn't really expect it.

thanks for suggestions so far

Mark

[phillpot]

How's this for a "long shot"


Nothing wrong with suspension/tyres but maybe something like broken diff mount (not unknown) causing eratic handling as drive is not delivered smooth and even ???

[Jed-S]

Your tyre pressures seem a bit low to me. We've got a MX5 with 205/16/45 tyres and they run at 26psi and the MX5 isn't much different in weight from an S3. When the tyres drop to 24psi we notice a difference in cornering where it does step out a bit.
18psi is getting into se7en territory and they're 500-600kg cars typically, albeit with higher profile tyres.

[TJC46]

[quote=Barkychoc]I had a rear trailing arm bush gone - and while man handling the arm only showed a tiny bit of play with some serious pulling you could feel that it felt very woolly on corners, particularly with changes of direction.

This gets my vote too. The previous owner of my old S3 had a serious spin, clipping the front end against the central res, ripping the bonnet off.Some idiot had pulled out in front off him, and has he braked too avoid a collision his car spun. He was ok, his insurance paid out as a cat "D" loss. but he could not explain why it had spun. I purchased it and began to rectify the damage,and generally refurb everything on the car. Both rear trailing arm bushes were knackered, now this may be just a coincedence, who knows?

[mep12345]

The bushes look favourite at the moment, but still not sure this accounts for the extra body roll. One thing I haven't checked is the front ARB and drop links as I've concentrated on the rear end as that was what seemed loose, but could the ARB cause extra body roll and this in turn introduce "rear steer" due to the trailing arm design (probably exacerbated by old bushes)?

[Wiz]

Have heard about shock mountings failing on a batch of Gaz and Protech from a while back. The lower body around the bush cracking due to the wrong bush/sleeve. There is a thread about it on the general tvr gassing. If your shocks are only a year old should't be a problem unless there old stock.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... to all - Gaz Golds

Edited by Wiz on Monday 28th December 21:32

[Ragtop]

It's well worth checking the ARB. If it's broken/disconnected, the car will be more softly sprung at the front when cornering, which will promote oversteer. Your tyre pressures sound scarily low too.

Good luck - hope you sort it soon.
Graham

[Barkychoc]

The bushes if as new will prevent some movement of the trailing arm - thats why everything should be tightened up with the suspension in its normal 'rest' position.
If the bushes are no longer bonded metal / rubber / metal then more movement will occur.

I became suspicious of my bushes on the drivers side as with the wheel and shock/spring assembly removed and the rear of the car jacked up one trailing arm would just drop, but the other would stay 'up' a bit with the rubber of the bushes presumably offering a bit of support, to make it reach the bottom stop you had to push it down.

[mep12345]

Ragtop said:

It's well worth checking the ARB. If it's broken/disconnected, the car will be more softly sprung at the front when cornering, which will promote oversteer. Your tyre pressures sound scarily low too.Graham

Oversteer is exactly the feeling I get, will be checking the ARB today as well as everything else. wrt the tyre pressures when asked yesterday I checked them and the cold had them 25% down on usual but even, therefore I could not see how this was creating the effect I was feeling. Given that I run 17" wheels and much lower profile tyres than standard my pressures are normally around 22psi cold and 24psi hot and will be pumped up before I drive it today.

Barkychoc said:

The bushes if as new will prevent some movement of the trailing arm - thats why everything should be tightened up with the suspension in its normal 'rest' position.

I always do the final torquing at the "at rest position" so error here is unlikely

Barkychoc said:

If the bushes are no longer bonded metal / rubber / metal then more movement will occur.

I became suspicious of my bushes on the drivers side as with the wheel and shock/spring assembly removed and the rear of the car jacked up one trailing arm would just drop, but the other would stay 'up' a bit with the rubber of the bushes presumably offering a bit of support, to make it reach the bottom stop you had to push it down.

Mine does do this though with the nearside taking longer to settle to the stop than the offside (it creaks a bit as it does so as well). I have come to the conclusion that these need to be done either way and they had been on my to do list for some 18 months anyway, but work involved has repeatedly put me off

Will update all when I have found definitive cause after its been on ramps later today

Thanks all

Mark

[techbotics]

Diesel..?

Just a thought the car could be ok.. or is it doing this all the time.. how about taking to a carpark or other safe area to see how she feels..?

Cheers

Damian

[mep12345]

techbotics said:

Diesel..?

Thats what I blamed the spin on at the time, but it has been there ever since feeling loose. Anyway now tracked it down to one major item and one minor item and sorted the major one with the minor to be ordered in due course.

Before anyone says it - yes I know I said I'd checked this but it was the nearside wheel bearing - I checked the offside but not the nearside as the nearside was replaced last year (not by me) and had only done 1000 miles or so, but when checked at my mates garage (we went to basics on everything) the movement was clear and when disassembled the outer inner race had pretty much collapsed. Changed today and car is tight again although body roll still seems a bit much and I think this is due to the minor thing.

The drop links on the ARB have seen better days and one has started to extrude from the "ball" arrangement. They still work ok and would pass an MOT but really ought to be done.

So jobs to do:

1. Wheel Bearing - done
2. Drop Links - order from Steve Heath (ETA - Ordered)
3. Steering Rack Overhaul - that was this weeks job planned but hasn't happened yet - Friday remove, Saturday take to "Kelly Bray Steering"
4. Trailing Arm Bushes - Did any of the alternative sources to TVR car parts tried earlier this year work? Otherwise order from TVR Car Parts and do after SCH (or during next period of leave as I really need to allow a week to do this job as working on these is outside so is dependent upon the weather).

Thanks for all the help and suggestions

Mark

Edited by mep12345 on Tuesday 29th December 17:06