Would stopping "cash" payouts help us out of compo culture?
Discussion
These compensation threads got me thinking.
Would giving services instead of "cash" stop a lot of these rediculous claims?
For example, someone slips over in a supermarket, supermarket is found liable. Injury is for example, a sprained ankle.
Instead of being awarded cash, they are given private hospital treatment and transportation by taxi to and from their place of work paid for directly by the supermarket, and any emotional suffering
is paid for by unlimited use of counselling because, as we all know, £2k does not "cure" anything.
So basic premise would be -
Actual proveable out of pocket expenses that HAVE to be paid in cash (such as time off, that is not paid by the employer if any)
All medical bills or couselling services paid for direct
All treatments and transportation paid for direct
Obviously this does not cover everything, my idea being that if there is less incentive for spending money, people all of a sudden will not want to claim for silly things as it does not benefit those who are faking.
Would giving services instead of "cash" stop a lot of these rediculous claims?
For example, someone slips over in a supermarket, supermarket is found liable. Injury is for example, a sprained ankle.
Instead of being awarded cash, they are given private hospital treatment and transportation by taxi to and from their place of work paid for directly by the supermarket, and any emotional suffering
is paid for by unlimited use of counselling because, as we all know, £2k does not "cure" anything.So basic premise would be -
Actual proveable out of pocket expenses that HAVE to be paid in cash (such as time off, that is not paid by the employer if any)
All medical bills or couselling services paid for direct
All treatments and transportation paid for direct
Obviously this does not cover everything, my idea being that if there is less incentive for spending money, people all of a sudden will not want to claim for silly things as it does not benefit those who are faking.
Interesting, could you please extrapolate your point to cover this example?
Driver is travelling along a single carriageway, half a mile up the road a 4x4 stops and indicates to pull into a side road on the drivers side of the road. At the last minute the 4x4 pulls out in front of driver.
Collision occurs, totals drivers car, driver sustains broken right femur, broken right tibia, broken left tibia, 3 broken ribs, face full of glass with accompanying scarring.
Right femur and tibia have to be pinned, likely that movement will be restricted in the future, and due to the method of pinning the right knee is significantly weaker.
Driver was a keen squash player, ski-er, runner etc and will likely not be able to perform to the same level as pre-accident, if at all.
Driver is travelling along a single carriageway, half a mile up the road a 4x4 stops and indicates to pull into a side road on the drivers side of the road. At the last minute the 4x4 pulls out in front of driver.
Collision occurs, totals drivers car, driver sustains broken right femur, broken right tibia, broken left tibia, 3 broken ribs, face full of glass with accompanying scarring.
Right femur and tibia have to be pinned, likely that movement will be restricted in the future, and due to the method of pinning the right knee is significantly weaker.
Driver was a keen squash player, ski-er, runner etc and will likely not be able to perform to the same level as pre-accident, if at all.
Marf said:
Driver was a keen squash player, ski-er, runner etc and will likely not be able to perform to the same level as pre-accident, if at all.
That would be tragic, but before I answer and try to figure out the best solution under my system, can I ask you on your opinion on how a lump of cash would help more than professional services and therapy?Either way, they will still never do the same sports again.
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Marf said:
Driver was a keen squash player, ski-er, runner etc and will likely not be able to perform to the same level as pre-accident, if at all.
That would be tragic, but before I answer and try to figure out the best solution under my system, can I ask you on your opinion on how a lump of cash would help more than professional services and therapy?TheCarpetCleaner said:
Either way, they will still never do the same sports again.
Indeed, and for that the driver is utterly gutted, and personally I feel that should be compensated for, over and above the cost of the car and the medical treatment. I'm guessing that from you OP you do not consider emotional trauma to be a valid reason for a payout, but I feel in certain examples it is entirely valid.
Yes I agree there a huge number of frivolous claims, but that should not stop valid payouts for true emotional and physical damage.
Edited by Marf on Thursday 31st December 14:37
All interesting points - I do seem to stand apart from most people where I do not suffer emotional trauma, or indeed believe that anyone should benefit from it.
Unfortunately life is full of risks, I choose to ride a motorcycle which carries massive risks of injury if I were to come off, or get hit by a car. However I accept those risks, and if something happens I will need to accept that I may never do certain things again.
If someone wrote you a cheque for what you consider to be reasonable for the circumstances you describe, what would it be out of interest?
Unfortunately life is full of risks, I choose to ride a motorcycle which carries massive risks of injury if I were to come off, or get hit by a car. However I accept those risks, and if something happens I will need to accept that I may never do certain things again.
If someone wrote you a cheque for what you consider to be reasonable for the circumstances you describe, what would it be out of interest?
Correct punishment of the a
holes who perpetrate these 'accidents' would in my opinion go a long way towards ending the 'compensation' culture.
Were the guy who ran into the back of me at 50mph, because he was pissing about with his stereo instead of looking where he was going, have received something more than a slap on the wrists I wouldn't have been nearly so concerned about anything other than out of pocket expenses.
As it is, that I was gaffer taped to a bed for 5 hours believing I'd broken my back and neck means I'm happy to get something for my mental trauma.
holes who perpetrate these 'accidents' would in my opinion go a long way towards ending the 'compensation' culture.Were the guy who ran into the back of me at 50mph, because he was pissing about with his stereo instead of looking where he was going, have received something more than a slap on the wrists I wouldn't have been nearly so concerned about anything other than out of pocket expenses.
As it is, that I was gaffer taped to a bed for 5 hours believing I'd broken my back and neck means I'm happy to get something for my mental trauma.
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Unfortunately life is full of risks, I choose to ride a motorcycle which carries massive risks of injury if I were to come off, or get hit by a car. However I accept those risks, and if something happens I will need to accept that I may never do certain things again.
Were an off your fault, I would agree, but if you were seriously injured with life altering consequences as a result of someone elses negligence, why should you not be compensated? TheCarpetCleaner said:
If someone wrote you a cheque for what you consider to be reasonable for the circumstances you describe, what would it be out of interest?
The cost of the car and medical treatment aside(they are by their nature quantifiable), I couldnt honestly say. So back to your framework, how would my example be treated?
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Marf said:
Driver was a keen squash player, ski-er, runner etc and will likely not be able to perform to the same level as pre-accident, if at all.
That would be tragic, but before I answer and try to figure out the best solution under my system, can I ask you on your opinion on how a lump of cash would help more than professional services and therapy?Either way, they will still never do the same sports again.
Also, just for the record, I do not like the ambulance chasing culture, and have had first hand experience of their shyster nature. I had a no fault accident in '06, car totalled, luckily I was not injured, neck was a bit stiff for a couple of days but nothing permanent or damaging.
Told insurance co off the bat I did not want to claim for personal injury. About 6 months later got a call from the accident management company's solicitors, they had a cheque for £3500 sitting there for me for whiplash, all I had to do was talk to the person handling the case and say I had intermittent neck pain, a blatant lie
I have no shame in admitting I lost it on the phone with them, told them I had specifically instructed them not to claim, said they could "shove their effing money up their effing arse" and hung up.
Told insurance co off the bat I did not want to claim for personal injury. About 6 months later got a call from the accident management company's solicitors, they had a cheque for £3500 sitting there for me for whiplash, all I had to do was talk to the person handling the case and say I had intermittent neck pain, a blatant lie
I have no shame in admitting I lost it on the phone with them, told them I had specifically instructed them not to claim, said they could "shove their effing money up their effing arse" and hung up.
OP, fully support your idea, wish a few more thought the same.
As for the scenario given, yes I'd feel sorry for someone who couldn't carry out their hobbies as they had been injured, but monetary compensation isn't going to make them able-bodied again, so the covering of their treatment and 'mental' rehabilitation is enough in my view.
As for the scenario given, yes I'd feel sorry for someone who couldn't carry out their hobbies as they had been injured, but monetary compensation isn't going to make them able-bodied again, so the covering of their treatment and 'mental' rehabilitation is enough in my view.
Marf said:
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Unfortunately life is full of risks, I choose to ride a motorcycle which carries massive risks of injury if I were to come off, or get hit by a car. However I accept those risks, and if something happens I will need to accept that I may never do certain things again.
Were an off your fault, I would agree, but if you were seriously injured with life altering consequences as a result of someone elses negligence, why should you not be compensated? TheCarpetCleaner said:
If someone wrote you a cheque for what you consider to be reasonable for the circumstances you describe, what would it be out of interest?
The cost of the car and medical treatment aside(they are by their nature quantifiable), I couldnt honestly say. So back to your framework, how would my example be treated?
Looking at it very simply, I would have to say the following -
The driver that caused the accident should be punished harshly by having their insurance premiums go up by a catastropic amount, hopefully making sure they cannot afford to drive again, at least for the next 10 or 15 years. That punishes the driver and helps recoup some of the financial loss to the system.
The victim should be given unlimited counselling if required, any and all therapies paid for. Any time of work paid for to the amount they would have actually lost (so say £200 per day if that is what they earn self employed). Any transportation costs to get to work or hospital paid for.
I did try to put myself in the place of the victim and the driver to answer that exammple, and obviously that is not exhaustive, but I believe the driver gets punished and the victim gets suitably screwed.
I would accept the following if it applied to me, but again that is based on my personal mantra that I do not deserve money that I have not earned, irrespective of the circumstances.
Hang fire carpet fella....
A word on the system as it stands.
Damages (Compo) falls in 2 categories:
1. General Damages- covering pain, suffering and loss of amenity (PSLA);
2. Special Damages- covering, loss of earnings (past and future), treatments, aids and equipments, care (for significant injuries) and any other element of quantifiable cost associated with the injury sustained.
In this way, a claim will incorporate both of the above.
Damages for the injuries themselves are relatively low. The JSB quotes £180-257,750 for severe brain damage, and about £4k for a simple arm fracture. (these are a guide- not set in stone).
The bulk of compensation in a large case is for care etc. Imagine a tetraplegic chap unable to work, unable to care for himself. He will require life long care from professionals, perhaps adaptations to his home, aid and equipment. These will fall under the Special Damages head.
I'm sure no one would say that this man does not deserve to be able to claim.
Cash payouts for more minor Injuries are to reflect the PSLA suffered, to compensate for this loss, however short lived. This type of loss cannot be compensated for in any other way (care plan eta as per the OP)
How do you compensate someone for an injury that causes a disadvantage on the labour market if not by a cash sum? You can't.
Anyway, that's my 2p worth.
A word on the system as it stands.
Damages (Compo) falls in 2 categories:
1. General Damages- covering pain, suffering and loss of amenity (PSLA);
2. Special Damages- covering, loss of earnings (past and future), treatments, aids and equipments, care (for significant injuries) and any other element of quantifiable cost associated with the injury sustained.
In this way, a claim will incorporate both of the above.
Damages for the injuries themselves are relatively low. The JSB quotes £180-257,750 for severe brain damage, and about £4k for a simple arm fracture. (these are a guide- not set in stone).
The bulk of compensation in a large case is for care etc. Imagine a tetraplegic chap unable to work, unable to care for himself. He will require life long care from professionals, perhaps adaptations to his home, aid and equipment. These will fall under the Special Damages head.
I'm sure no one would say that this man does not deserve to be able to claim.
Cash payouts for more minor Injuries are to reflect the PSLA suffered, to compensate for this loss, however short lived. This type of loss cannot be compensated for in any other way (care plan eta as per the OP)
How do you compensate someone for an injury that causes a disadvantage on the labour market if not by a cash sum? You can't.
Anyway, that's my 2p worth.
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Marf said:
TheCarpetCleaner said:
Unfortunately life is full of risks, I choose to ride a motorcycle which carries massive risks of injury if I were to come off, or get hit by a car. However I accept those risks, and if something happens I will need to accept that I may never do certain things again.
Were an off your fault, I would agree, but if you were seriously injured with life altering consequences as a result of someone elses negligence, why should you not be compensated? TheCarpetCleaner said:
If someone wrote you a cheque for what you consider to be reasonable for the circumstances you describe, what would it be out of interest?
The cost of the car and medical treatment aside(they are by their nature quantifiable), I couldnt honestly say. So back to your framework, how would my example be treated?
Looking at it very simply, I would have to say the following -
The driver that caused the accident should be punished harshly by having their insurance premiums go up by a catastropic amount, hopefully making sure they cannot afford to drive again, at least for the next 10 or 15 years. That punishes the driver and helps recoup some of the financial loss to the system.
The victim should be given unlimited counselling if required, any and all therapies paid for. Any time of work paid for to the amount they would have actually lost (so say £200 per day if that is what they earn self employed). Any transportation costs to get to work or hospital paid for.
I did try to put myself in the place of the victim and the driver to answer that exammple, and obviously that is not exhaustive, but I believe the driver gets punished and the victim gets suitably screwed.
I would accept the following if it applied to me, but again that is based on my personal mantra that I do not deserve money that I have not earned, irrespective of the circumstances.
In this case, which happened to my best mate at the end of august this year, the other driver was charged with driving without due care and attention, and given 6 points and a £350 fine
Why he was not banned I'll never know, he could not give a valid reason to the police as to why he pulled out in front of my friend.
I feel he should have been charged with dangerous driving and banned, but I am unaware of why the police would choose DWDCA instead of DD.
Edited by Marf on Thursday 31st December 14:56
Marf said:
In this case, which happened to my best mate, the other driver was charged with driving without due care and attention, and given 6 points and a £350 fine
Why he was not banned I'll never know, he could not give a valid reason to the police as to why he pulled out in front of my friend.
I find this absolutely outrageous as well.Why he was not banned I'll never know, he could not give a valid reason to the police as to why he pulled out in front of my friend.
As much as I don't believe in cash payouts, I do believe that if someone does something as remarkably f
kwitted and stupid as the other driver you describe, I believe they should be hashly punished.Probably along the lines of they need to pay personally for the direct costs of the care up to a fixed (large)amount, where it is then taken up by their insurance company. - like perhaps a feckwit excess charge!
Vvroom said:
How do you compensate someone for an injury that causes a disadvantage on the labour market if not by a cash sum? You can't.
Thats another aspect of my friends case. He's a mechanical engineer who works on steam turbines and coal fire powerstations. About 50% of the year he is on site climbing around inside industrial machinery. At present he is unsure how his injury may affect this aspect of his work.
Marf said:
Vvroom said:
How do you compensate someone for an injury that causes a disadvantage on the labour market if not by a cash sum? You can't.
Thats another aspect of my friends case. He's a mechanical engineer who works on steam turbines and coal fire powerstations. About 50% of the year he is on site climbing around inside industrial machinery. At present he is unsure how his injury may affect this aspect of his work.
Vvroom said:
Marf said:
Vvroom said:
How do you compensate someone for an injury that causes a disadvantage on the labour market if not by a cash sum? You can't.
Thats another aspect of my friends case. He's a mechanical engineer who works on steam turbines and coal fire powerstations. About 50% of the year he is on site climbing around inside industrial machinery. At present he is unsure how his injury may affect this aspect of his work.
Yes it was a horrible accident, he was very lucky not to have lost his right leg. His fathers somewhat of a business bigwig and as such as has good legal representation, the claim for the car and to date medical expenses have already been settled, the injury compensation is currently outstanding until the full impact of the accident on his personal and professional life is known.
Marf said:
Also, just for the record, I do not like the ambulance chasing culture, and have had first hand experience of their shyster nature. I had a no fault accident in '06, car totalled, luckily I was not injured, neck was a bit stiff for a couple of days but nothing permanent or damaging.
Told insurance co off the bat I did not want to claim for personal injury. About 6 months later got a call from the accident management company's solicitors, they had a cheque for £3500 sitting there for me for whiplash, all I had to do was talk to the person handling the case and say I had intermittent neck pain, a blatant lie
I have no shame in admitting I lost it on the phone with them, told them I had specifically instructed them not to claim, said they could "shove their effing money up their effing arse" and hung up.
I was hit twice up the back by a BMW. The first time was not too hard but the second bounced me up so hard that I broke the sunroof catch and gave me a bump.Told insurance co off the bat I did not want to claim for personal injury. About 6 months later got a call from the accident management company's solicitors, they had a cheque for £3500 sitting there for me for whiplash, all I had to do was talk to the person handling the case and say I had intermittent neck pain, a blatant lie
I have no shame in admitting I lost it on the phone with them, told them I had specifically instructed them not to claim, said they could "shove their effing money up their effing arse" and hung up.
I put in a claim for damage to my car, a Ginetta G32, and it came to a suprisingly small £1100 due to, they said, me not having the handbrake on for the second hit.
I was not given the go ahead by the other bloke's insurance company as they wanted a claims assessor to check it over. Bit of a pain, especially as the replacement car was a Renault Megane, but within a couple of days a very pleasant chap attended. I challenged him as to why he was bothering with such a small claim when the other driver had admitted everything.
He said that it had been flagged up as suspicious as there had been no claim for whiplash despite it being a rear impact. I told him that the reason I hadn't claimed was that I had no whiplash. He said that it never stopped anyone before.
It seemed odd that I would have got my car back a lot sooner if I'd been prepared to lie.
IMHO - "Loser Pays" would stop a lot of the frivolous stuff with the provisio that if a case is brought and summarily dismissed as frivolous and the plaintiff cannot pay, then the lawyer for the plaintiff pays. Cost of doing business. They shouldn't have brought the case if they were not 100% sure.
I know this would clear a lot of the backlog in US cases.
I know this would clear a lot of the backlog in US cases.
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