Would I be nuts to consider an E36 M3?
Discussion
I've been nosing around the idea of an E36 M3 recently, and one's popped up not too far away. Question is though, would I be nuts to consider this.
For instance, I'm looking an an Evo for about 5.5K and upon initial look (I need to take a closer one) it all looks straight and sound. Thing is when I start looking around the forums for info about living with one of these it seems to be a sign of doom and gloom. From what I understand basic MPG isn't a huge issue, but it's more related to the costs when things go wrong (for instance, a grand needed here, two there etc).
Therefore, the question is, given that I am by no means a rich person, would I be nuts to consider an M3? Are the costs really as bad as the forums might suggest?
For instance, I'm looking an an Evo for about 5.5K and upon initial look (I need to take a closer one) it all looks straight and sound. Thing is when I start looking around the forums for info about living with one of these it seems to be a sign of doom and gloom. From what I understand basic MPG isn't a huge issue, but it's more related to the costs when things go wrong (for instance, a grand needed here, two there etc).
Therefore, the question is, given that I am by no means a rich person, would I be nuts to consider an M3? Are the costs really as bad as the forums might suggest?
A fair rule of thumb with these is to say they all need a grand spending in the 1st yr, they don't all, but its not so far off the truth, they were 40k cars new & even with gsf etc some of the parts are a lot more than non M e36s.
But you can run one on a tight budget, I have & that includes track days all over Europe & Alps Italy & France trips etc, the owners before me had the expence of the things that will go wrong with an older M so I could concentrate on pretty much just regular maintenace- which is small beans & spend my $ on making it handle & stop a lot better.
Cracking cars, just need sorting in a couple of areas- namely stopping & handling, to make 'em great.
But you can run one on a tight budget, I have & that includes track days all over Europe & Alps Italy & France trips etc, the owners before me had the expence of the things that will go wrong with an older M so I could concentrate on pretty much just regular maintenace- which is small beans & spend my $ on making it handle & stop a lot better.
Cracking cars, just need sorting in a couple of areas- namely stopping & handling, to make 'em great.
On a tight budget I'd would suggest going for a 3.0 as the engine, gearbox and vanos seam to be stronger.
I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
andye30m3 said:
On a tight budget I'd would suggest going for a 3.0 as the engine, gearbox and vanos seam to be stronger.
I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
Two spun shells? Did you warm them up before giving them full beans?I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
DjSki said:
andye30m3 said:
On a tight budget I'd would suggest going for a 3.0 as the engine, gearbox and vanos seam to be stronger.
I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
Two spun shells? Did you warm them up before giving them full beans?I had a evo for 2.5 years and it was by far the most expensive and unreliable car I've owned, but I might have just got a bad one.
I spun shells on 2 engines resulting in second hand engines being required, and also had a vanos fail.
They are good fun cars but not cheap to run.
When the first engine went at circa 65,000 miles there were a few examples of the same thing happening on E36coupe.com and someone was looking into a fix. second hand engine cost me the best part of £2k fitted once parts were sold off of the original engine.
Second engine went at around 90,000 miles I car got chucked on ebay. It was a shame as I really enjoyed the car once i'd ditched the standard suspension for coilovers.
One thing which is worth considering if you have the time and space is that an Evo will brake for good money. I sold mine with the damaged bottom end for £2.5k to a guy who said it would brake for up to £6-7k
Having owned a couple of E36 M3s in the past I can tell you that the most important thing you need to do is find someone who knows what to look for and get there help in finding a good one.
Definitely get on E36coupe.com. I have been on there for 6 years now and its a great site with lots of knowledge and a very helpful community. Most of what you need to know will be found by using the search facility but feel free to post and I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to help.
I talk from experience here. My first M3 was a 3.0l vert. I paid 7 grand for the car and then spent 7 grand in one year of ownership. I had to change almost everything on the car including the diff which was a big bill. At the time I thought the car was a bargain. We live and learn! This nearly ruined the ///M dream for me and after spending all that money I got rid of the car for fear of more bills and rocked about in a 1500 quid 525 tourer for a while just to get back on my feet. I didn't have much spare cash at the time.
Then the itch for an M came back and I decided to give it one more go. I saw and advert on here and went to see a 4 door saloon, debadged, no spoiler etc and I fell in love with it. It was an Ex Munich legends car having been sold by them in the past and serviced there and I paid what I believed to be a very fair price for it. It was a private sale and I didn't even haggle a penny. I drove the car for work for a year, servicing it every 4500 miles. Other than that it cost me a set of Eagle f1s and two wiper blades, thats it! Paying slightly over the odds for what you know is a straight M3 is definitely not a bad move. Buy what you think is a bargain and it could become the most expensive mistake you have made at the first service!
I personally wouldnt go near an SMG1, every owner I know who has had one has had problems. I have driven plenty of coupes but my preference would be for another saloon if I bought another one for the road. The saloon is much rarer and I think its fair to say because of the practicallity many more of them were put under company ownership and therefore serviced to a higher standard than most. I think this is the greatest problem you face when looking for an M3. You might be able to pick one up for 4 grand now but they were a 40 grand car new and as such the parts and servicing reflect that.
I would definately go for an Evo over a 3.0l too. If you can find an evo with a quiet VANOS its a much improved car imo.
To give you an idea though, although my last Evo was a great car, doing 25K plus miles a year with regular service intervals and uprated oils and fluids purchased (I ran Royal Purple in mine) coupled with tyres and insurance the monthly cost of ownership soon adds up. I had a small loan on mine too and if you add all this together the monthly costs of ownership were not far off a brand new 35+K car from a dealersip on finance. Hence my current weapon, a 135i with all the shopping! My current weapon has a 3 year warranty, 19000 mile service intervals as apposed to under 5000 and only group 18 insurance as opposed to grp20. The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. Not what its all about I know but its much cheaper to run, is far more refined.
All food for thought mate ;-)
Definitely get on E36coupe.com. I have been on there for 6 years now and its a great site with lots of knowledge and a very helpful community. Most of what you need to know will be found by using the search facility but feel free to post and I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to help.
I talk from experience here. My first M3 was a 3.0l vert. I paid 7 grand for the car and then spent 7 grand in one year of ownership. I had to change almost everything on the car including the diff which was a big bill. At the time I thought the car was a bargain. We live and learn! This nearly ruined the ///M dream for me and after spending all that money I got rid of the car for fear of more bills and rocked about in a 1500 quid 525 tourer for a while just to get back on my feet. I didn't have much spare cash at the time.
Then the itch for an M came back and I decided to give it one more go. I saw and advert on here and went to see a 4 door saloon, debadged, no spoiler etc and I fell in love with it. It was an Ex Munich legends car having been sold by them in the past and serviced there and I paid what I believed to be a very fair price for it. It was a private sale and I didn't even haggle a penny. I drove the car for work for a year, servicing it every 4500 miles. Other than that it cost me a set of Eagle f1s and two wiper blades, thats it! Paying slightly over the odds for what you know is a straight M3 is definitely not a bad move. Buy what you think is a bargain and it could become the most expensive mistake you have made at the first service!
I personally wouldnt go near an SMG1, every owner I know who has had one has had problems. I have driven plenty of coupes but my preference would be for another saloon if I bought another one for the road. The saloon is much rarer and I think its fair to say because of the practicallity many more of them were put under company ownership and therefore serviced to a higher standard than most. I think this is the greatest problem you face when looking for an M3. You might be able to pick one up for 4 grand now but they were a 40 grand car new and as such the parts and servicing reflect that.
I would definately go for an Evo over a 3.0l too. If you can find an evo with a quiet VANOS its a much improved car imo.
To give you an idea though, although my last Evo was a great car, doing 25K plus miles a year with regular service intervals and uprated oils and fluids purchased (I ran Royal Purple in mine) coupled with tyres and insurance the monthly cost of ownership soon adds up. I had a small loan on mine too and if you add all this together the monthly costs of ownership were not far off a brand new 35+K car from a dealersip on finance. Hence my current weapon, a 135i with all the shopping! My current weapon has a 3 year warranty, 19000 mile service intervals as apposed to under 5000 and only group 18 insurance as opposed to grp20. The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. Not what its all about I know but its much cheaper to run, is far more refined.
All food for thought mate ;-)
Strange that spun bearings thing, have heard of it before on an evo but was down to over rev on the down change. ARP rod bolts good cheap protection for that tho.
Can't understand how matey was going to make so much on braking it, with how low e36m3s can be had for now on a good engine car they are worth more in bits that whole is true, but can't see how he could get 6-7k for it?
Can't understand how matey was going to make so much on braking it, with how low e36m3s can be had for now on a good engine car they are worth more in bits that whole is true, but can't see how he could get 6-7k for it?
BillyB said:
///Mike said:
under 5000 (mile service interval)
Is that the official service interval or "what a careful owner ought to do"?I may have been servicing the car slightly more than one might have to but I was using an 11 year old car to do a sales job doing 25K miles a year so I thought it proper to look after the car and it would look after me and it did. I also changed the VANOS filter at every service which for the sake of £6 was worth it. I also used all Royal Purple fluids religiously.
Prevention is MUCH cheaper than the cure with BMWs but even more so with an M car imo.
OP - not nuts at all. Just do some serious homework as there are a lot of dogs out there. I've had mine (a 97evo coupe) for three years. Bought on 72000 miles and now on around 105k. Apart from servicing I have changed a brake light sensor and the ABS sensor and that's it.
To be fair, I have spent a lot of money elsewhere like rebuilding the brakes and replacing the suspension but on a 12 year old car this is to be expected and is a great excuse to just uprate everything. Enginewise however, she's been just awesome.
To be fair, I have spent a lot of money elsewhere like rebuilding the brakes and replacing the suspension but on a 12 year old car this is to be expected and is a great excuse to just uprate everything. Enginewise however, she's been just awesome.
I picked up my '98 Evo last year off ebay, 80k miles for £3.5k cat C recorded a few years back mind...! I've done over 20k in it since and all its cost me is a set of front disks (now only £60ish from eurocarparts for the proper floating jobbies) pads, 2 sets of tyres and I've chucked on some Eibach springs fresh shocks and rear trailing arm bushes. Apart from fuel and an couple of oil changes, I've not spent a penny on it since May.
Providing you know what you're looking for and you're handy with the spanners, they don't work out too expensive to run. Mines returning 28mpg, 32mpg on a motorway run so not too shabby. Insurance fully comp £450.
'The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. '
Not my Evo! Mine comfortably drives away from a 335i (I regularly encounter on on my daily drive!) and its a dead heat with my mates '98 Carrera 2 porka. Maybe I've just got a good one
Like the rest of the guys say, do your research, take your time and make sure you know exactly what you're getting!
Providing you know what you're looking for and you're handy with the spanners, they don't work out too expensive to run. Mines returning 28mpg, 32mpg on a motorway run so not too shabby. Insurance fully comp £450.
'The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. '
Not my Evo! Mine comfortably drives away from a 335i (I regularly encounter on on my daily drive!) and its a dead heat with my mates '98 Carrera 2 porka. Maybe I've just got a good one
Like the rest of the guys say, do your research, take your time and make sure you know exactly what you're getting!Mr_Dave said:
I picked up my '98 Evo last year off ebay, 80k miles for £3.5k cat C recorded a few years back mind...! I've done over 20k in it since and all its cost me is a set of front disks (now only £60ish from eurocarparts for the proper floating jobbies) pads, 2 sets of tyres and I've chucked on some Eibach springs fresh shocks and rear trailing arm bushes. Apart from fuel and an couple of oil changes, I've not spent a penny on it since May.
Providing you know what you're looking for and you're handy with the spanners, they don't work out too expensive to run. Mines returning 28mpg, 32mpg on a motorway run so not too shabby. Insurance fully comp £450.
'The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. '
Not my Evo! Mine comfortably drives away from a 335i (I regularly encounter on on my daily drive!) and its a dead heat with my mates '98 Carrera 2 porka. Maybe I've just got a good one Like the rest of the guys say, do your research, take your time and make sure you know exactly what you're getting!
///Mike and I are bound to put this to the test in the very near future!Providing you know what you're looking for and you're handy with the spanners, they don't work out too expensive to run. Mines returning 28mpg, 32mpg on a motorway run so not too shabby. Insurance fully comp £450.
'The 135 is not an M car but I would certainly leave an E36 M3 for dust in a straight line. '
Not my Evo! Mine comfortably drives away from a 335i (I regularly encounter on on my daily drive!) and its a dead heat with my mates '98 Carrera 2 porka. Maybe I've just got a good one
Like the rest of the guys say, do your research, take your time and make sure you know exactly what you're getting!I don't want to drag this thread off topic but Guy yes I look forward to our playtime on the autobahn in a few months.
Mr Dave you're Evo must be 'a fast one' as it weighs the same as a 135i has 50nm less torgue and produces the same BHP in the real world. Also peak power from the N54 engine is from 1300-5600rpm, the power band on the Evo is MUCH narrower than this. Car tests on stock 135s have shown sub 5 second 0-60 times.
BOT> Imo the E36 M3 is the very best value performance car you can buy if you need something that is comfortable and practical for every day use. I challange anyone to mention a worthy contender. I am talking about the full package, pace, handling, refinement, economy, running costs.
Audi S4 and Mercedes C Class AMG in both guises don't come close imo.
Mr Dave you're Evo must be 'a fast one' as it weighs the same as a 135i has 50nm less torgue and produces the same BHP in the real world. Also peak power from the N54 engine is from 1300-5600rpm, the power band on the Evo is MUCH narrower than this. Car tests on stock 135s have shown sub 5 second 0-60 times.
BOT> Imo the E36 M3 is the very best value performance car you can buy if you need something that is comfortable and practical for every day use. I challange anyone to mention a worthy contender. I am talking about the full package, pace, handling, refinement, economy, running costs.
Audi S4 and Mercedes C Class AMG in both guises don't come close imo.
I'd say if budget is the issue here then go for a non evo 3 litre.
The cash will buy you a better example to start with and avoid a few of the reliability and servicing issues.
I was on e36coupe.com for a few years had an e36 325 and then a 1995 m3 cab 3.0.
I looked around for a well looked after car and only had to spend on rear suspension bushes in the guttingly short 6 months I owned it. This was a bog standard cab with power hood, elec/heated seats and air-con and yet made timed 0-60 runs at trax of 5.3 and 5.2 seconds. I loved it.
The non evo is not much down on power in the real world as they regularly make 280bhp on the rollers whereas most standard evo's struggle to make the 321 ponies that bmw claimed as 100bhp per litre is a nice marketing tool, with 305bhp being more realistic. The non evo is also free of the double vanos timing gear troubles and has the stronger 5 speed box, evo's have been known to eat cogs. I never missed having an extra gear in mine, the M3s main virtue is it's power delivery with heaps of torque from 1500 to 7000rpm so it's sometimes a blessing to have longer gears to make the most of it's flexibilty. The non evo also has non-floating discs which saves a fair bit when it comes to servicing compared to the evo items, and don't give much away in real world performance.
Horses for courses as always but the non evo will cost less to maintain and give less headaches whilst being evry bit as much fun.
Would absolutely wholeheartedly recommend any model e36 M3 as a worthy purchase though provided you get a good one to begin with!
The cash will buy you a better example to start with and avoid a few of the reliability and servicing issues.
I was on e36coupe.com for a few years had an e36 325 and then a 1995 m3 cab 3.0.
I looked around for a well looked after car and only had to spend on rear suspension bushes in the guttingly short 6 months I owned it. This was a bog standard cab with power hood, elec/heated seats and air-con and yet made timed 0-60 runs at trax of 5.3 and 5.2 seconds. I loved it.
The non evo is not much down on power in the real world as they regularly make 280bhp on the rollers whereas most standard evo's struggle to make the 321 ponies that bmw claimed as 100bhp per litre is a nice marketing tool, with 305bhp being more realistic. The non evo is also free of the double vanos timing gear troubles and has the stronger 5 speed box, evo's have been known to eat cogs. I never missed having an extra gear in mine, the M3s main virtue is it's power delivery with heaps of torque from 1500 to 7000rpm so it's sometimes a blessing to have longer gears to make the most of it's flexibilty. The non evo also has non-floating discs which saves a fair bit when it comes to servicing compared to the evo items, and don't give much away in real world performance.
Horses for courses as always but the non evo will cost less to maintain and give less headaches whilst being evry bit as much fun.
Would absolutely wholeheartedly recommend any model e36 M3 as a worthy purchase though provided you get a good one to begin with!
I bought a 3.0ltr car in early October, I went for the 3.0ltr as I was not finding any nice evos within my budget. Although my budget was higher I ended up paying £3250 for a 2 owner car with 84k on the clock, and most of the usual wear and tear items recently replaced, steering rack, bushes, brakes, suspension, brand new tyres all round etc, only problem is a bit of rust on both the rear arches but I knew about that before I bought it.
It is more than fast enough when you do not compare and good enough in all areas for me not to be dissapointed I did not get the evo. Yes the evo is the better car but in isolation the 3.0ltr is a great motor, perhaps not the best M out there but hey...
i have done 3k miles in it and so far so good. I did give it an oil and filter change straight away and sorted a couple of little niggles with the interior door cards but that is it, so far anyway!
I think, for the money, it is an astonsishingly good car. I cannot think of another car for that kind of money that can compete.
It is more than fast enough when you do not compare and good enough in all areas for me not to be dissapointed I did not get the evo. Yes the evo is the better car but in isolation the 3.0ltr is a great motor, perhaps not the best M out there but hey...
i have done 3k miles in it and so far so good. I did give it an oil and filter change straight away and sorted a couple of little niggles with the interior door cards but that is it, so far anyway!
I think, for the money, it is an astonsishingly good car. I cannot think of another car for that kind of money that can compete.
///Mike said:
I don't want to drag this thread off topic but Guy yes I look forward to our playtime on the autobahn in a few months.
Mr Dave you're Evo must be 'a fast one' as it weighs the same as a 135i has 50nm less torgue and produces the same BHP in the real world. Also peak power from the N54 engine is from 1300-5600rpm, the power band on the Evo is MUCH narrower than this. Car tests on stock 135s have shown sub 5 second 0-60 times.
BOT> Imo the E36 M3 is the very best value performance car you can buy if you need something that is comfortable and practical for every day use. I challange anyone to mention a worthy contender. I am talking about the full package, pace, handling, refinement, economy, running costs.
Audi S4 and Mercedes C Class AMG in both guises don't come close imo.
can't help myself would like to point out (according to the book):Mr Dave you're Evo must be 'a fast one' as it weighs the same as a 135i has 50nm less torgue and produces the same BHP in the real world. Also peak power from the N54 engine is from 1300-5600rpm, the power band on the Evo is MUCH narrower than this. Car tests on stock 135s have shown sub 5 second 0-60 times.
BOT> Imo the E36 M3 is the very best value performance car you can buy if you need something that is comfortable and practical for every day use. I challange anyone to mention a worthy contender. I am talking about the full package, pace, handling, refinement, economy, running costs.
Audi S4 and Mercedes C Class AMG in both guises don't come close imo.
E36 M3 weighs 1440kgs
135i coupe weighs 1560kgs
If thats from your handbook then you are lucky to own an Evo coupe with aluminium doors which I thought were rare. EDIT Just read your previous post and you have a 3.0l which is closer to 281-286bhp (depending where you read) and 1460kgs in coupe form.
Pretty sure my evo saloon was over 1500Kgs and my vert was nearly 1600kgs.
Its doesn't change anything though. I have owned both and have no reason to miss inform people. The M3 needs to be wound up to get anything out of it and the S50 feels positively lethargic compared to the N54 unless you drive everywhere at over 5000rpm.
Don't get me wrong I love the E36 M3 as much as anyone could. Its served me well and I still own one in track guise. Its just doesn't have the pace of an E92 M3 and the 135 does.
Anyone who wants a genuinely high performance car on a budget would be silly not to consider an E36 M3. I just wanted to highlight that cheap to buy does not mean cheap to run and money should be spent on preventative maintenance which most people are not used to with cars.
Pretty sure my evo saloon was over 1500Kgs and my vert was nearly 1600kgs.
Its doesn't change anything though. I have owned both and have no reason to miss inform people. The M3 needs to be wound up to get anything out of it and the S50 feels positively lethargic compared to the N54 unless you drive everywhere at over 5000rpm.
Don't get me wrong I love the E36 M3 as much as anyone could. Its served me well and I still own one in track guise. Its just doesn't have the pace of an E92 M3 and the 135 does.
Anyone who wants a genuinely high performance car on a budget would be silly not to consider an E36 M3. I just wanted to highlight that cheap to buy does not mean cheap to run and money should be spent on preventative maintenance which most people are not used to with cars.
Edited by ///Mike on Friday 8th January 19:45
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