Alonso and " Dirty " Schumacher
Discussion
As this is from the Star it has to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
I think what he's implying is that at least Alonso's alleged tricks have been kept off the track. Senna, Prost, Piquet Snr, Lauda, Mario Andretti could all be accused off off-track gamesmanship to certain socially-accepted degrees.
But no-one, the motor-racing world over, compares to the antics of the great 'Great' pretender himself...
But no-one, the motor-racing world over, compares to the antics of the great 'Great' pretender himself...
mchammer89 said:
mattikake said:
But no-one, the motor-racing world over, compares to the antics of the great 'Great' pretender himself...
Senna.Schumacher might ( maybe) just want to have it in mind to improve his reputation when he returns. I think we'll see a slightly different Schumacher.
SRT77 said:
mchammer89 said:
mattikake said:
But no-one, the motor-racing world over, compares to the antics of the great 'Great' pretender himself...
Senna.Schumacher might ( maybe) just want to have it in mind to improve his reputation when he returns. I think we'll see a slightly different Schumacher.
All IMO of course.
I don't think there can be any argument that Senna was ruthless - this is not a challenge to PHers by the way. But I don't think he would cheat in the manner that Schuey did. He was, evidently, furious with Schuey's traction control although I accept that it might have been because of the support from those in power rather than the blatent cheating.
When Senna took off Prost in Japan it was different in kind to MS's move on JV and even Damon Hill. Prost left a gap. Whilst I would not bet that had they not collided Senna would have made it through the corner, the fact is that Prost should not have closed the door. If Senna had been allowed through then, even if he hadn't spun off, he still would not have been able to carry speed out of the corner and Prost would probably have been able to overtake. We'll never know of course. But it seemed to me that Senna drove at a spot and not at a car.
Mind you, I reckon he thought Prost would not give up the corner.
Towards the end of his career there was a frightening conceit about Senna. That bit about having a god on his side was worrying. I like to remember him as he was before he beatified himself.
When Senna took off Prost in Japan it was different in kind to MS's move on JV and even Damon Hill. Prost left a gap. Whilst I would not bet that had they not collided Senna would have made it through the corner, the fact is that Prost should not have closed the door. If Senna had been allowed through then, even if he hadn't spun off, he still would not have been able to carry speed out of the corner and Prost would probably have been able to overtake. We'll never know of course. But it seemed to me that Senna drove at a spot and not at a car.
Mind you, I reckon he thought Prost would not give up the corner.
Towards the end of his career there was a frightening conceit about Senna. That bit about having a god on his side was worrying. I like to remember him as he was before he beatified himself.
PhillT said:
Could someone copy and paste the article please? The Star's website is blocked here in the Middle East. Cheers!
ALONSO HAS HIS EYE ON 'DIRTY' SCHUMACHERDAILY STAR SUNDAY
ABOVE: Michael Schumacher
3rd January 2010
By Ted Macauley
Ferrari star Fernando Alonso and 1996 World Champion Damon Hill have told new FIA supremo Jean Todt: You can’t afford to let Michael Schumacher get away with dirty tricks on the track.
Schumacher, 41, is all set for a return with his mentor Ross Brawn at Mercedes GP after retiring in 2006.
Race fans can’t wait to see the German legend battling against the new kids on the block like Lewis Hamilton.
But double champ Alonso has issued a reminder that Schuey is the most cited offender ever in F1 – after a series of clashes, crashes and underhand tactics on his way to seven world titles. Spaniard Alonso fingers Schuey for his deliberate collision with former champion Jacques Villeneuve.
Despite his stunts, Schuey dodged punishments. And now Hill, shunted off the track by the German in a bitter duel, has voiced his concerns on the possibility of special treatment.
Frenchman Todt was Schumacher’s boss at Ferrari and said he was “like a son”. Hill told the Daily Star Sunday: “The suspicion was always that Michael got a little bit of favouritism from the FIA.
“I think the FIA are going to have to be on their toes to make sure there is no suspicion of that in the coming season.”
Todt said: “It would be inappropriate for me to discuss decisions.”
And F1 chief Bernie Ecclestone rapped: “It’s possible for him to be champion again but there are at least five guys who could beat him.”
Derek Smith said:
I don't think there can be any argument that Senna was ruthless - this is not a challenge to PHers by the way. But I don't think he would cheat in the manner that Schuey did. He was, evidently, furious with Schuey's traction control although I accept that it might have been because of the support from those in power rather than the blatent cheating.
When Senna took off Prost in Japan it was different in kind to MS's move on JV and even Damon Hill. Prost left a gap. Whilst I would not bet that had they not collided Senna would have made it through the corner, the fact is that Prost should not have closed the door. If Senna had been allowed through then, even if he hadn't spun off, he still would not have been able to carry speed out of the corner and Prost would probably have been able to overtake. We'll never know of course. But it seemed to me that Senna drove at a spot and not at a car.
Mind you, I reckon he thought Prost would not give up the corner.
Towards the end of his career there was a frightening conceit about Senna. That bit about having a god on his side was worrying. I like to remember him as he was before he beatified himself.
With the Senna/Prost thing in Japan it was also to do with the fact that once senna had gained pole position for the race the FIA's jean Marie Balestre changed the pole position from the left hand side of the track to the right more dirty side of the track (not on the racing line), so it seems Senna had more than one french man out to get him that day. That prompted Senna to say to prost 'if you turn in i wont yield', and the rest is history!When Senna took off Prost in Japan it was different in kind to MS's move on JV and even Damon Hill. Prost left a gap. Whilst I would not bet that had they not collided Senna would have made it through the corner, the fact is that Prost should not have closed the door. If Senna had been allowed through then, even if he hadn't spun off, he still would not have been able to carry speed out of the corner and Prost would probably have been able to overtake. We'll never know of course. But it seemed to me that Senna drove at a spot and not at a car.
Mind you, I reckon he thought Prost would not give up the corner.
Towards the end of his career there was a frightening conceit about Senna. That bit about having a god on his side was worrying. I like to remember him as he was before he beatified himself.
graememac said:
With the Senna/Prost thing in Japan it was also to do with the fact that once senna had gained pole position for the race the FIA's jean Marie Balestre changed the pole position from the left hand side of the track to the right more dirty side of the track (not on the racing line), so it seems Senna had more than one french man out to get him that day. That prompted Senna to say to prost 'if you turn in i wont yield', and the rest is history!
It's a tribute to Mosley that, despite replacing Balestre, a man who was largely disliked, he's still seen as the greater of the two evils. At least JMB was an enthusiast for the various sports and they were stronger when he left it.It's the similarities between the two that are most remarkable. Both had to revert to the courts after being accused of nazi sympathies. JMB has photographs of him dressed in nazi uniform but said that he joined in order to fight the Germans. Given the damage he caused to F1, I would assume the SS never recovered. He won a couple of cases in the libel court after he said that he was working under cover and everyone who knew about his courageous activites during the war were dead.
Mosley's explanation was not quite so believeable.
There were suggestions that Balestra favoured one particular driver - I've forgotten his names at the moment - and that he would change the regs to benefit that particular driver.
I've got to say that despite not being a major fan of Senna I sympathised with his point of view in Japan. As you say, he gave Prost fair warning. Mind you, I think he did so in order to ensure he would try to cut him off.
The following year Senna took a similar gamble and it paid off in one way but he got banned regardless.
I don't think Schumacher will be able to get away with his blatant and dangerous cheating, on track.
1. He no longer has the Ferrari (version) of International Assistance (FIA)
2. The cars are now even safer, and that the new breed (Hamilton & Vettel & Co) won't back out of moves, and be bullied, I think they'll have the accident with him. Then he won't do it again.
and 3. knowing that, and how telemetry and onboard video is scrutinised I don't think he'll play that game unless he gets really stressed..
I say that as I always thought after Melbourne 94 that Schumacher was fragile mentally, if (and it's big IF) you could put him extreme pressure, stress (like we probably all are in truth), he was not a superman like say Senna, Melbourne '94, the Villeneuve incident, that Coulthard Spa loon moment, and of course other bullying, chopping, etc. If he could be pushed hard enough he could go 'dirty' under stress. Now I know Eddie Irvine is full of s
t, but recently he confirmed as much that MS never tried that shenanigans on with him because MS knew he wouldn't back down, or back off, and his image at least suggested Irvine was crazy enough to be prepared to have an accident with him (given his Suzuka run in with Senna, I can well believe that), so consequently Irvine said he never had an trouble with MS. Admittedly he may have been contractually bound to follow orders.
I just can't see Hamilton (even Alonso) & Co being bullied by him, now. Also the sport's governance, penalties, stewarding on track has moved on since he retired, pit car comms telemetry, onboard cameras, there's no where to hide and obfuscate about he did, what goes on on the track no longer stays on the track. I don't know if thats good or bad thing, just is what it is.
One things for sure, Schumacher would never had tried anything like those things on Senna had he lived, as Senna clearly thought he had god on his side. I don't know which is worse of the two attitudes, probably Senna's attitude. But he was a driving genius, so can be excused to some extent, even if I could never like him as much as say Mansell or even Damon (who was not a great driver, but got the job done despite a limited talent). And I don't think MS would've of got away with it with our Brummie Moaner Mansell either, as, for all his faults, he just had balls of steel, when his blood was up, something Senna I think grudgingly learnt and acted accordingly.
Just my opinion.
1. He no longer has the Ferrari (version) of International Assistance (FIA)
2. The cars are now even safer, and that the new breed (Hamilton & Vettel & Co) won't back out of moves, and be bullied, I think they'll have the accident with him. Then he won't do it again.
and 3. knowing that, and how telemetry and onboard video is scrutinised I don't think he'll play that game unless he gets really stressed..
I say that as I always thought after Melbourne 94 that Schumacher was fragile mentally, if (and it's big IF) you could put him extreme pressure, stress (like we probably all are in truth), he was not a superman like say Senna, Melbourne '94, the Villeneuve incident, that Coulthard Spa loon moment, and of course other bullying, chopping, etc. If he could be pushed hard enough he could go 'dirty' under stress. Now I know Eddie Irvine is full of s
t, but recently he confirmed as much that MS never tried that shenanigans on with him because MS knew he wouldn't back down, or back off, and his image at least suggested Irvine was crazy enough to be prepared to have an accident with him (given his Suzuka run in with Senna, I can well believe that), so consequently Irvine said he never had an trouble with MS. Admittedly he may have been contractually bound to follow orders.I just can't see Hamilton (even Alonso) & Co being bullied by him, now. Also the sport's governance, penalties, stewarding on track has moved on since he retired, pit car comms telemetry, onboard cameras, there's no where to hide and obfuscate about he did, what goes on on the track no longer stays on the track. I don't know if thats good or bad thing, just is what it is.
One things for sure, Schumacher would never had tried anything like those things on Senna had he lived, as Senna clearly thought he had god on his side. I don't know which is worse of the two attitudes, probably Senna's attitude. But he was a driving genius, so can be excused to some extent, even if I could never like him as much as say Mansell or even Damon (who was not a great driver, but got the job done despite a limited talent). And I don't think MS would've of got away with it with our Brummie Moaner Mansell either, as, for all his faults, he just had balls of steel, when his blood was up, something Senna I think grudgingly learnt and acted accordingly.
Just my opinion.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Monday 4th January 15:02
Northern Munkee said:
...the sport's governance, penalties, stewarding on track has moved on since he retired, pit car comms telemetry, onboard cameras, there's no where to hide and obfuscate about he did, what goes on on the track no longer stays on the track.
Let's not forget that the last time MS really tried it on, Monaco qualifying 2006, he got caught and penalised.OK so the penalty was pretty derisory, but nevertheless he didn't get away with it.
I hope that has stuck with him.
SRT77 said:
As this is from the Star it has to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
Not rich at all, Alonso is not known as a dirty driver or a bully, bar one revenge incident in the pits supported by his crew.http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
And your Piquet example is piss poor. Even if it was Alono's idea, it's nothing compared to schumacher's personal race fixing by taking out Hakkinen, Hill, Villeneuve, Montoya. Two of those he won championships from.
As Keke Rosberg pointed out, he's a cheap cheat and should grow up.
Spookily just reading James Allen and further confirmation of a Schumi fragility under pressure.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/01/the-latest-o...
Although I don't think MS would ever be under the same pressure as I feel much of it comes from within himself, unless someone gets under his skin and gives him serious needle, and I don't see any personality on the grid to do that, save for maybe Alonso (although Hamilton managed to rattle his mind cage), which maybe why Alonso is coming out with this. I think it would take someone like Hamilton calling him over rated, and Lewis is way too corporate and well mannered for that. In fact I wonder if Alonso is actually coming out with this because he's already feeling the pressure/expectation of racing for Ferrari, particularly comparison with the Schumi legacy, and now with MS' return (with Merc), he's fearing Italian media/tifosi direct comparison with MS, especially if MS beats him head to head, and/or a below par 2010 Ferrari?
Conspiracy theorists unite...
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/01/the-latest-o...
Although I don't think MS would ever be under the same pressure as I feel much of it comes from within himself, unless someone gets under his skin and gives him serious needle, and I don't see any personality on the grid to do that, save for maybe Alonso (although Hamilton managed to rattle his mind cage), which maybe why Alonso is coming out with this. I think it would take someone like Hamilton calling him over rated, and Lewis is way too corporate and well mannered for that. In fact I wonder if Alonso is actually coming out with this because he's already feeling the pressure/expectation of racing for Ferrari, particularly comparison with the Schumi legacy, and now with MS' return (with Merc), he's fearing Italian media/tifosi direct comparison with MS, especially if MS beats him head to head, and/or a below par 2010 Ferrari?
Conspiracy theorists unite...
Northern Munkee said:
and now with MS' return (with Merc), he's fearing Italian media/tifosi direct comparison with MS, especially if MS beats him head to head, and/or a below par 2010 Ferrari?
Conspiracy theorists unite...
The influence of the press on Ferrari is not to be underestimated. A friend of mine was in Milan and said that in the two days before the race and the day after something like 60% of the editorial was dedicated to Ferrari. And it wasn't a junk paper like the Sun but a 'proper' newspaper. Whilst people said that Todt et al ignored the press, they only did so by winning. As soon as they stopped, the press was on their back and the Ferrari hierachy made their displeasure known.Conspiracy theorists unite...
Something to do with Todt's fall from grace perhaps?
If the ticket sales are not going well for Monza then the government puts pressure on the company. It is almost as if they were putting money into the team.
Northern Munkee said:
Spookily just reading James Allen and further confirmation of a Schumi fragility under pressure.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/01/the-latest-o...
Although I don't think MS would ever be under the same pressure as I feel much of it comes from within himself, unless someone gets under his skin and gives him serious needle, and I don't see any personality on the grid to do that, save for maybe Alonso (although Hamilton managed to rattle his mind cage), which maybe why Alonso is coming out with this. I think it would take someone like Hamilton calling him over rated, and Lewis is way too corporate and well mannered for that. In fact I wonder if Alonso is actually coming out with this because he's already feeling the pressure/expectation of racing for Ferrari, particularly comparison with the Schumi legacy, and now with MS' return (with Merc), he's fearing Italian media/tifosi direct comparison with MS, especially if MS beats him head to head, and/or a below par 2010 Ferrari?
Conspiracy theorists unite...
Alonso never cracked under pressure IMO. He made mistakes, struggled with Alien tyres (like other drivers admitted) but he was brilliant under pressure in 2005-2006. It was Hamilton who ended up in the gravel last race of season 2007, went backwards to win the title in 2008. http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/01/the-latest-o...
Although I don't think MS would ever be under the same pressure as I feel much of it comes from within himself, unless someone gets under his skin and gives him serious needle, and I don't see any personality on the grid to do that, save for maybe Alonso (although Hamilton managed to rattle his mind cage), which maybe why Alonso is coming out with this. I think it would take someone like Hamilton calling him over rated, and Lewis is way too corporate and well mannered for that. In fact I wonder if Alonso is actually coming out with this because he's already feeling the pressure/expectation of racing for Ferrari, particularly comparison with the Schumi legacy, and now with MS' return (with Merc), he's fearing Italian media/tifosi direct comparison with MS, especially if MS beats him head to head, and/or a below par 2010 Ferrari?
Conspiracy theorists unite...
In contrast to schumacher who broke rules, ignored Black flags, crashed into walls all under pressure from Senna's number 2.
Alonso has no reason to fear a direct comparison, as the team is building Two equal cars to suit both drivers, and likely to let them take points of each other, doesnt compare to the schumacher era at Ferrari. Also Ferrari finished lower last year than they did before schumacher joined.
oilspill said:
SRT77 said:
As this is from the Star it has to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
Not rich at all, Alonso is not known as a dirty driver or a bully, bar one revenge incident in the pits supported by his crew.http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213...
A bit rich coming from Alonso who of course had no idea what Piquet was up to at Singapore and did not blackmail his boss re Spygate.
And your Piquet example is piss poor. Even if it was Alono's idea, it's nothing compared to schumacher's personal race fixing by taking out Hakkinen, Hill, Villeneuve, Montoya. Two of those he won championships from.
As Keke Rosberg pointed out, he's a cheap cheat and should grow up.
The Keke Rosberg view was not shared by his son, but anyway as you put it maybe Schumacher has grown up. We'll see soon enough.
Edited by SRT77 on Monday 4th January 21:36
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