Defender 90 - TD5......advice needed please......

[SAGPACK]

Having read a recent thread on buying a Defender some advised it best to steer clear of the TD5 engine. Please could anyone let me know why this is and why the 200 and 300 Tdi engines are better, and is it a real no no to buy a TD5? I am viewing a TD5 on an 04 plate early next week (weather permitting of course) and any advice would be much appreciated.

Sagpack

[Gaspode]

As far as I can see, there was a certain amount of scepticism about the TD5 when if first came out, due to its technical complexity. There's no getting away from the fact that its a LOT less friendly for a home mechanic to deal with, whereas the TDi can happily be spannered at home.

BUT the TD5 engine is loads better than the old TDis. Smoother, more powerful, more economical, and just as reliable - early fears seem to have been unfounded. We have a 2002 TD5 90, prior to that we had a 300 Tdi 90, and the TD5 has been great. It's now done just over 90k miles, and nothing's gone wrong with it so far. I certainly wouldn't go back to a TDi, and I have no plans to change it yet.

If you're not figuring on doing work on it yourself, then I would definitely say go for the TD5. They are also amenable to being tuned quite nicely by outfits like Twisted Performance.

[Caractacus]

SAGPACK said:

Having read a recent thread on buying a Defender some advised it best to steer clear of the TD5 engine. Please could anyone let me know why this is and why the 200 and 300 Tdi engines are better, and is it a real no no to buy a TD5? I am viewing a TD5 on an 04 plate early next week (weather permitting of course) and any advice would be much appreciated.

Sagpack

Have a looksee at the seach function and pop in TD5 and 300Tdi - there are a few threads with more technical info therein.

I was looking a while back and stayed well clear of the TD5 and ended up with a mint 300Tdi. I've not looked back (I drove both, too).

Happy hunting

[SAGPACK]

Thanks chaps for the advice, my spannering skills are minimal so a TD5 sounds good! Cheers

[Andy Sargeant]

Differcult to find now but try and find a very good 300TDI, my choice, never liked the TD5.

Andy.

[SAGPACK]

Andy Sargeant said:

Differcult to find now but try and find a very good 300TDI, my choice, never liked the TD5.

Andy.

Thanks for the advice Andy but could you expand a bit as to what it is about the TD5 you don't like. Blue Thunder made a similar comment on another thread a little while back but didn't really go into much detail....do TD5s go wrong more or are they more to fix cost wise if something breaks? My budget is 10k but I would go a bit more for the right car so I thought a TD5 was about as modern as I could get without have 'moon' mileage on it?

Thanks. Sagpack

[Gaspode]

If your budget is 10K you may find it difficult to find a TD5 Defender in good nick - you'd probably get a hardtop ok for that money, but a station wagon is more likely to be in the 12 to 15 region. Good ones are in big demand at the moment. For 10k you'd get a good Discovery, if the idea floats your boat.

[West4x4]

my mates selling a lovely td5 90 station wagon for less than 10k. The TD5 is a great engine grunty easily tuneable and makes an awesome noise. God i love mine serieoly thinking of not selling it :-S

[Caractacus]

SAGPACK said:

Andy Sargeant said:

Differcult to find now but try and find a very good 300TDI, my choice, never liked the TD5.

Andy.

Thanks for the advice Andy but could you expand a bit as to what it is about the TD5 you don't like. Blue Thunder made a similar comment on another thread a little while back but didn't really go into much detail....do TD5s go wrong more or are they more to fix cost wise if something breaks? My budget is 10k but I would go a bit more for the right car so I thought a TD5 was about as modern as I could get without have 'moon' mileage on it?

Thanks. Sagpack

Here you go -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Tdi or TD5??&mid=50252

Andy helped a load in this thread and this link should save him from repeating himself

[SAGPACK]

Caractacus said:

SAGPACK said:

Andy Sargeant said:

Differcult to find now but try and find a very good 300TDI, my choice, never liked the TD5.

Andy.

Thanks for the advice Andy but could you expand a bit as to what it is about the TD5 you don't like. Blue Thunder made a similar comment on another thread a little while back but didn't really go into much detail....do TD5s go wrong more or are they more to fix cost wise if something breaks? My budget is 10k but I would go a bit more for the right car so I thought a TD5 was about as modern as I could get without have 'moon' mileage on it?

Thanks. Sagpack

Here you go -
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Tdi or TD5??&mid=50252

Andy helped a load in this thread and this link should save him from repeating himself

Thanks

[300bhp/ton]

SAGPACK said:

Having read a recent thread on buying a Defender some advised it best to steer clear of the TD5 engine. Please could anyone let me know why this is and why the 200 and 300 Tdi engines are better, and is it a real no no to buy a TD5? I am viewing a TD5 on an 04 plate early next week (weather permitting of course) and any advice would be much appreciated.

Sagpack

I can give you answer, but it'll offend many a Landy enthusiast.

Basically some don't like the TD5 because its new and uses and ECU - as in its different. So the stick in the mud old timers in the LR community wave their hands in the air and go screaming, claiming this that and the other.

I believe in Army tests the TD5 passed all reliability trials and was only rejected due to LR not being able to guarantee that the engine electronics would be unaffected to EMP (Elctro Magnetic Pulse).

I'm not knocking the TDI's, I've had a 300TDI and I'm on my 2nd 200TDI. They are fairly good work horses, but they are old and underpowered. The basic block and internals date back to the 50's. They are also noisy and not very refined.

The TD5 is a modern engine and revs better while still producing a good spread of power. I do admit the stock LR tune for the TD5 is a bit wet, especially in the Defender but a simple chip or remap will see gaining HP that a TDI unit could never dream of.

In terms of reliability, Devon4x4 a big Land Rover specialist use TD5's as do many others and claim them to be reliable. Their own demo rig is TD5 powered:




Another thing to remember is the TD5 has been the stable LR engine for a long time, since 1998 so many of the vehicles on the road and in daily use, use this engine.

I'm not certain on this, but I've heard that when BMW sold LR they retained the rights to the TD5 engine, which I suspect it why LR swapped in the Transit 2.4 as it offers very little over the TD5 otherwise.

[Caractacus]

300bhp/ton] said:

I can give you answer, but it'll offend many a Landy enthusiast.

Basically some don't like the TD5 because its new and uses and ECU - as in its different. So the stick in the mud old timers in the LR community wave their hands in the air and go screaming, claiming this that and the other.

I believe in Army tests the TD5 passed all reliability trials and was only rejected due to LR not being able to guarantee that the engine electronics would be unaffected to EMP (Elctro Magnetic Pulse).

I'm not knocking the TDI's, I've had a 300TDI and I'm on my 2nd 200TDI. They are fairly good work horses, but they are old and underpowered. The basic block and internals date back to the 50's. They are also noisy and not very refined.

The TD5 is a modern engine and revs better while still producing a good spread of power. I do admit the stock LR tune for the TD5 is a bit wet, especially in the Defender but a simple chip or remap will see gaining HP that a TDI unit could never dream of.

Not offended by any means, (& I'm a long way from being a LR anorak/enthusiast) however 'just because it's new' isn't the reason for many saying 'I wouldn't touch it with yours'

There's more to the TD5/ecu issue that prompted the MOD to say "no thanks", iirc.

What does rile some, I am sure, is blanket statements such as "So the stick in the mud old timers in the LR community wave their hands in the air and go screaming, claiming this that and the other." The statement is a wee bit naff, really.

If more bhp is what you want, yes, the TD5 is more easily tuned. Hell, I know someone (AJS) that's had 200bhp out of their 200Tdi! Not exactly low on grunt I'd say?

Of all the indy mechanics I spoke with (quite a number, iirc around seven to ten) not one said "buy a TD5" Most said buy a well sorted 300Tdi and a couple said buy a Toyota Land Cruiser! LOL

[300bhp/ton]

Caractacus said:

Not offended by any means, (& I'm a long way from being a LR anorak/enthusiast) however 'just because it's new' isn't the reason for many saying 'I wouldn't touch it with yours'

Afraid I am a bit of a Landy anorak and are into them in a big way, currently got two, but owned others and all my family own Landys pretty much. Mum has a Freelander, Uncles has 4 90's and a Disco II, other Uncle has a D3 and so on. Close family totals around 50 or so LR vehicles over the years.

Caractacus said:

There's more to the TD5/ecu issue that prompted the MOD to say "no thanks", iirc.

I daresay there is, it was a while back when I was reading about it

Caractacus said:

What does rile some, I am sure, is blanket statements such as "So the stick in the mud old timers in the LR community wave their hands in the air and go screaming, claiming this that and the other." The statement is a wee bit naff, really.

Maybe, but doesn't make it any less true. Maybe I should phrase it different, a persons age probably has little to do with, more just their perception that anything new, electronic or different is bad. They are often the same people who ignore or don't believe the Defender has any real flaws and are happy to ignore the weak axles and diffs with their Rover P4 origins and so forth.

Caractacus said:

If more bhp is what you want, yes, the TD5 is more easily tuned. Hell, I know someone (AJS) that's had 200bhp out of their 200Tdi! Not exactly low on grunt I'd say?

Can I ask what they did and how much it cost to get a real 200bhp from a Tdi?

Upgraded water cooled turbo
flowed head
cam
tweaked injector pump
Maybe bigger injectors
Exhaust
Free flow filter
Large FMIC
Propane kit

Not knocking it, as I said I've got a TDI myself, tuned in the normal fashion making around 150hp I believe. I just think a TD5 is better.

Caractacus said:

Of all the indy mechanics I spoke with (quite a number, iirc around seven to ten) not one said "buy a TD5" Most said buy a well sorted 300Tdi and a couple said buy a Toyota Land Cruiser! LOL

And did they add any reason or more importantly justification to their reasoning?

I don't mean to be funny about it, but if a mechanic has say 10 TD5's in, in which 4 have engine problems (totally hypothetical).

Now if they have 5 TDI's in and 2 have engine problems. A quick glance would say the TD5 is twice as likely to have an issue because they work on twice the number with problems.

However, do the maths and you'll see they both have the same ratio.

I also suspect that the age of many TDI's now, especially in Disco's with rust, if they do go wrong they get binned rather than fixed. Any TD5 is newer and worth more, so if it goes wrong chances are it'll be taken to mechanic to be fixed.


Sadly I don't have actual statistics to use, but out of all the Land Rover's I've know I don't know of any more with TD5's to have engine trouble than ones with TDI's.

[SAGPACK]

300bhp/ton said:

SAGPACK said:

Having read a recent thread on buying a Defender some advised it best to steer clear of the TD5 engine. Please could anyone let me know why this is and why the 200 and 300 Tdi engines are better, and is it a real no no to buy a TD5? I am viewing a TD5 on an 04 plate early next week (weather permitting of course) and any advice would be much appreciated.

Sagpack

I can give you the answer.....

Thanks for the input 300bhp/ton....and the update is.....I've bought a TD5! and hoping to pick it up on Saturday, weather permitting (not from the TD5's point of view but me getting to it )

Thanks to every one who contributed to the thread and I hope my choice doesn't offend anyone

[Caractacus]

300bhp/ton said:

Caractacus said:

Not offended by any means, (& I'm a long way from being a LR anorak/enthusiast) however 'just because it's new' isn't the reason for many saying 'I wouldn't touch it with yours'

Afraid I am a bit of a Landy anorak and are into them in a big way, currently got two, but owned others and all my family own Landys pretty much. Mum has a Freelander, Uncles has 4 90's and a Disco II, other Uncle has a D3 and so on. Close family totals around 50 or so LR vehicles over the years.

Caractacus said:

There's more to the TD5/ecu issue that prompted the MOD to say "no thanks", iirc.

I daresay there is, it was a while back when I was reading about it

Caractacus said:

What does rile some, I am sure, is blanket statements such as "So the stick in the mud old timers in the LR community wave their hands in the air and go screaming, claiming this that and the other." The statement is a wee bit naff, really.

Maybe, but doesn't make it any less true. Maybe I should phrase it different, a persons age probably has little to do with, more just their perception that anything new, electronic or different is bad. They are often the same people who ignore or don't believe the Defender has any real flaws and are happy to ignore the weak axles and diffs with their Rover P4 origins and so forth.

Caractacus said:

If more bhp is what you want, yes, the TD5 is more easily tuned. Hell, I know someone (AJS) that's had 200bhp out of their 200Tdi! Not exactly low on grunt I'd say?

Can I ask what they did and how much it cost to get a real 200bhp from a Tdi?

Upgraded water cooled turbo
flowed head
cam
tweaked injector pump
Maybe bigger injectors
Exhaust
Free flow filter
Large FMIC
Propane kit

Not knocking it, as I said I've got a TDI myself, tuned in the normal fashion making around 150hp I believe. I just think a TD5 is better.

Caractacus said:

Of all the indy mechanics I spoke with (quite a number, iirc around seven to ten) not one said "buy a TD5" Most said buy a well sorted 300Tdi and a couple said buy a Toyota Land Cruiser! LOL

And did they add any reason or more importantly justification to their reasoning?

I don't mean to be funny about it, but if a mechanic has say 10 TD5's in, in which 4 have engine problems (totally hypothetical).

Now if they have 5 TDI's in and 2 have engine problems. A quick glance would say the TD5 is twice as likely to have an issue because they work on twice the number with problems.

However, do the maths and you'll see they both have the same ratio.

I also suspect that the age of many TDI's now, especially in Disco's with rust, if they do go wrong they get binned rather than fixed. Any TD5 is newer and worth more, so if it goes wrong chances are it'll be taken to mechanic to be fixed.


Sadly I don't have actual statistics to use, but out of all the Land Rover's I've know I don't know of any more with TD5's to have engine trouble than ones with TDI's.

Fair comments, all.

I'm unaware of the mods AJS made to their 200Tdi, but you're probably not far off the mark I suspect. It sure shows the potential though. IIRC it was reliable, too (if not a tad thirsty).

The TD5 issues (and iirc a number are DII specific) are many and include plastic head dowels (WTF?) going pear-shaped, the ECU getting all hot and bothered due to oil ingress, ACE playing up, the dreaded air suspension (especially on the rear, iirc), DC joint on the front prop which can and is known to fail (woah!), MAF sensor longevity, starter motor interfering with crank position sensor signals.

One DII specific issue is the presence of the HDC, ABS and TC lights, which can be the ABS shuttle valve, or the modulator - this is a rather expensive fix?

More issues include leaking injector seals, dual mass flywheels breaking up, cracked cylinder heads and fuel chambers, ACE pipes rusting through, ACE pumps failing, Radiators leaking (very common I was told, fuel pressure regulators leaking...

So quite a few there, then. Now I know even the TD5 is getting on, for the main part now, so hopefully a good owner would have seen to many of these issues, however the chances are that they've not seen every issue in the one vehicle, yet (;)) (wouldn't that be a nightmare!!!), which could leave a nasty surprise in store for the next owner. Then there's the owner getting rid as they know it's got issues...

Didn't LR drop the 300Tdi for emission reasons instead of working out a fix? With some good old R & D they could have had it sorted, and a more reliable TD5 to boot.

A TD5 wasn't worth the risk, for me at least. But not everyone is in my position of living in the middle of nowhere and having to rely on the 4X4 when the roads turn to ice etc, such as they have recently. As an aside, even the local farmer got stuck yesterday, in a massive snowdrift. I pulled the tractor out. That wouldn't have happened in a TD5! (you know I'm pulling ya leg).

[Gaspode]

Caractacus said:

One DII specific issue is the presence of the HDC, ABS and TC lights, which can be the ABS shuttle valve, or the modulator - this is a rather expensive fix?

I thought the good old "Three Amigos" issue was usually caused by the ECU reporting an incorrect ABS sensor gap? Easily fixed by replacing the sensor in question.

We owned a 200 Tdi Defender for 10 years, before that we had a Series IIa for 10 years, our current TD5 Defender we've had for 6 years now, with no intention of getting rid of it for a good while yet. It has currently around 90k miles on it. I would certainly not consider swapping the TD5 for any earlier model.

None of these vehicles ever gave any serious problems that I can now recall, so they've all been equally reliable. We don't do any 'Green Laning' type offroading, but they all get driven off road round the farm quite a lot and all have done their fair share of towing everything from 2-ton trailers full of builders rubble to horse trailers loaded with llamas.

The trick with these vehicles, as with any vehicle, is to look after it properly. I suspect a lot of LR owners end up suffering because they buy something cheap that's been abused and neglected by a previous owner.

[300bhp/ton]

Caractacus said:

Fair comments, all.

I'm unaware of the mods AJS made to their 200Tdi, but you're probably not far off the mark I suspect. It sure shows the potential though. IIRC it was reliable, too (if not a tad thirsty).

Actually I wouldn't mind knowing, think I might do some research. Don't get me wrong, I do like the TDI's and don't plan on getting rid of mine just yet.

I suppose the difference is a TD5 with bolt ons (exhaust, intercooler, etc) and tune will see 175-180hp and with something like a hybird turbo like Bell Auto swap on you can see over 200hp without having to open the block up.

Caractacus said:

The TD5 issues (and iirc a number are DII specific) are many and include plastic head dowels (WTF?) going pear-shaped, the ECU getting all hot and bothered due to oil ingress, ACE playing up, the dreaded air suspension (especially on the rear, iirc), DC joint on the front prop which can and is known to fail (woah!), MAF sensor longevity, starter motor interfering with crank position sensor signals.

I agree the D2 and TD5 powered Defenders have other issues, but to be completely fair ACE, air suspension, DC prop and so aren't actually anything to do with the engine itself.

The more simple it is the easier it is to get it more reliable. The down side is it then lacks the ability. So it becomes a trade off. An ACE equipped DII is a totally different beast on a windy Welsh mountain road compared to a coil sprung 200Tdi Disco I. If you can live with the latter then no probs, but it is a trade off.

Caractacus said:

One DII specific issue is the presence of the HDC, ABS and TC lights, which can be the ABS shuttle valve, or the modulator - this is a rather expensive fix?

More issues include leaking injector seals, dual mass flywheels breaking up, cracked cylinder heads and fuel chambers, ACE pipes rusting through, ACE pumps failing, Radiators leaking (very common I was told, fuel pressure regulators leaking...

So quite a few there, then. Now I know even the TD5 is getting on, for the main part now, so hopefully a good owner would have seen to many of these issues, however the chances are that they've not seen every issue in the one vehicle, yet (;)) (wouldn't that be a nightmare!!!), which could leave a nasty surprise in store for the next owner. Then there's the owner getting rid as they know it's got issues...

Didn't LR drop the 300Tdi for emission reasons instead of working out a fix? With some good old R & D they could have had it sorted, and a more reliable TD5 to boot.

A TD5 wasn't worth the risk, for me at least. But not everyone is in my position of living in the middle of nowhere and having to rely on the 4X4 when the roads turn to ice etc, such as they have recently. As an aside, even the local farmer got stuck yesterday, in a massive snowdrift. I pulled the tractor out. That wouldn't have happened in a TD5! (you know I'm pulling ya leg).

lol

it's all good natured

[Caractacus]

300bhp/ton said:

Caractacus said:

Fair comments, all.

I'm unaware of the mods AJS made to their 200Tdi, but you're probably not far off the mark I suspect. It sure shows the potential though. IIRC it was reliable, too (if not a tad thirsty).

Actually I wouldn't mind knowing, think I might do some research. Don't get me wrong, I do like the TDI's and don't plan on getting rid of mine just yet.

I suppose the difference is a TD5 with bolt ons (exhaust, intercooler, etc) and tune will see 175-180hp and with something like a hybird turbo like Bell Auto swap on you can see over 200hp without having to open the block up.

Caractacus said:

The TD5 issues (and iirc a number are DII specific) are many and include plastic head dowels (WTF?) going pear-shaped, the ECU getting all hot and bothered due to oil ingress, ACE playing up, the dreaded air suspension (especially on the rear, iirc), DC joint on the front prop which can and is known to fail (woah!), MAF sensor longevity, starter motor interfering with crank position sensor signals.

I agree the D2 and TD5 powered Defenders have other issues, but to be completely fair ACE, air suspension, DC prop and so aren't actually anything to do with the engine itself.

The more simple it is the easier it is to get it more reliable. The down side is it then lacks the ability. So it becomes a trade off. An ACE equipped DII is a totally different beast on a windy Welsh mountain road compared to a coil sprung 200Tdi Disco I. If you can live with the latter then no probs, but it is a trade off.

Caractacus said:

One DII specific issue is the presence of the HDC, ABS and TC lights, which can be the ABS shuttle valve, or the modulator - this is a rather expensive fix?

More issues include leaking injector seals, dual mass flywheels breaking up, cracked cylinder heads and fuel chambers, ACE pipes rusting through, ACE pumps failing, Radiators leaking (very common I was told, fuel pressure regulators leaking...

So quite a few there, then. Now I know even the TD5 is getting on, for the main part now, so hopefully a good owner would have seen to many of these issues, however the chances are that they've not seen every issue in the one vehicle, yet (;)) (wouldn't that be a nightmare!!!), which could leave a nasty surprise in store for the next owner. Then there's the owner getting rid as they know it's got issues...

Didn't LR drop the 300Tdi for emission reasons instead of working out a fix? With some good old R & D they could have had it sorted, and a more reliable TD5 to boot.

A TD5 wasn't worth the risk, for me at least. But not everyone is in my position of living in the middle of nowhere and having to rely on the 4X4 when the roads turn to ice etc, such as they have recently. As an aside, even the local farmer got stuck yesterday, in a massive snowdrift. I pulled the tractor out. That wouldn't have happened in a TD5! (you know I'm pulling ya leg).

lol

it's all good natured

More fair points (just stop it already )

The good thing is at least we're debating the merits of the same breed, and not throwing in the jap lot! That, I am sure is a whole different kettle of fish and not one I care to sample!

[gavm5]

The good thing is at least we're debating the merits of the same breed, and not throwing in the jap lot! That, I am sure is a whole different kettle of fish and not one I care to sample!
[/quote]

DOH !

looks like it was already on ya mind fella

[Loud Pedal]

Well, i've had my 90TD5 since 2000 and it has now covered 138,000 miles(100,000 chipped!!)dragging big trailers around and to date the only cost outside regular maintenance has been a clutch and a propshaft UV joint!!! Pretty good in my book!