'A' rated windows — unreasonable expectations?

[mrsshpub]

We had our rotting wooden double glazed windows replaced last autumn with shiny new 'A' rated ones, expecting the various cold draughts to be a thing of the past. However, I am sat here, about 18" from a window, and can feel a distinct flow of cold air — despite this particular window having been 'adjusted' twice to stop the draughts.

I did a bit of investigation with an infra red thermometer yesterday & found several places around this and other window frames that measured just 10 or 11C — and more draughts. Is this what should be expected when the external temperature is around -2C?

Am I being totally unreasonable to expect to be able to sit near an 'A' rated window & not get thoroughly chilled?

[Spudler]

Your not being unreasonable at all, they should be draught free. If the adjustments via the allen key bolts don't cure the problem then it may be the adjustment on the actual glazing. When the glazing is install its uses packers in opposing corners, which in the trade we call "heal n toe", that the height/level of the casement in relation to the fixed part of the frame all lines up (hope that makes sense). It could be a case of a packer sliding out if not siliconed together and the window has slightly dropped. Simple solution, whip out the beads, repack as necessary so the welds line up on the window and fixed part of the frame.
I'd get them back and check it.

ETA im assuming they're Upvc.

Edited by Spudler on Sunday 10th January 12:03

[Fort Jefferson]

Are they wood again, or uPVC?

[mrsshpub]

Spudler said:

Your not being unreasonable at all, they should be draught free. If the adjustments via the allen key bolts don't cure the problem then it may be the adjustment on the actual glazing. When the glazing is install its uses packers in opposing corners, which in the trade we call "heal n toe", that the height/level of the casement in relation to the fixed part of the frame all lines up (hope that makes sense). It could be a case of a packer sliding out if not siliconed together and the window has slightly dropped. Simple solution, whip out the beads, repack as necessary so the welds line up on the window and fixed part of the frame.
I'd get them back and check it.

ETA im assuming they're Upvc.

Edited by Spudler on Sunday 10th January 12:03

They are uPVC.

They've already adjusted the worst window twice & I can still feel a draught coming from the top edge, where the opening part meets the frame — and they told me last time they were here that they couldn't pull it in any tighter because it would 'damage the hinges'. The other opening window in the same frame seems OK......

Do you have any comments about the low temperatures I found around several window frames?

Edited by mrsshpub on Sunday 10th January 12:25

[Simpo Two]

I hear that the frames are least effective part of the structure - indeed it surprised me that whilst you have to have all the K-glass super-dooper stuff in the middle, the cill and frames are just sat in the hole with no more than a bead of sealant and a trim strip to keep the outside out.

But even when direct draughts are stopped physically, you will still get a convection effect if the outside is cold enough.

[Spudler]

Does the weld joints line up on the opening window,(top left hand corner in the pic) and the frame (with the handle undone like the picture)?. If not then the glazing/frame definitely needs adjusting. Packing on top of the glazing to push the frame up so as the welds line up.

Re the temperature issue i can only assume its gaps around the edge of the frame, ideally it should be filled (foam) but 99.9% sure they've just siliconed and or trimmed down the edges.

Any chance of a close up picture of the offending area?

[mrsshpub]

Spudler said:

Does the weld joints line up on the opening window,(top left hand corner in the pic) and the frame (with the handle undone like the picture)?. If not then the glazing/frame definitely needs adjusting. Packing on top of the glazing to push the frame up so as the welds line up.

Picture?

Spudler said:

Re the temperature issue i can only assume its gaps around the edge of the frame, ideally it should be filled (foam) but 99.9% sure they've just siliconed and or trimmed down the edges.

I was here when the windows were installed & never saw any sign of foam filler apart from where they had really big gaps to fill before putting beading around the outside of the bay windows.

Spudler said:

Any chance of a close up picture of the offending area?

Yes — but I'll need to get the blind down first to get a good view of the top of the window.

Thanks for your input.

Edited by mrsshpub on Sunday 10th January 14:09

[RedLCRB0b]

We had A rated double glazing fitted last Autumn too and I had to get the company back several times to cure the draughts ! We could hear the air moving through the gaps and when I could easily slide a piece of paper between the window and the frame, the seals were terrible. It might also be worth checking that they filled any gaps on the outside of the house, we found a huge gap underneath one of the windows that they had missed. Once filled in that got rid of a major draught.

Bob

Edit - Here is the thread where I discussed my problems originally
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by RedLCRB0b on Sunday 10th January 13:49

[Rgee]

We had A rated windows with Planitherm glass fitted in Aug. after spending much time looking at the options and picking, what I thought, at the time was the best in my price range. They measured up the windows from the inside allowing for a 10mm tolerance but I always wondered why they did not measure from the outside. When they came to fit them I was gobsmacked to see large gaps between the top of the casement and lintel, enough to see daylight, which they foam filled and covered with strips. Touch wood I have not had any major draught issues but I'm baffled as to why I paid all that money for A rated windows, supposedly measured to fit but packed out with masses of foam.

[Balmoral Green]

It sounds to me like this is nothing to do with the energy rating of the windows, and everything to do with the manufacturing quality.

[mrsshpub]

RedLCRB0b said:

We had A rated double glazing fitted last Autumn too and I had to get the company back several times to cure the draughts ! We could hear the air moving through the gaps and when I could easily slide a piece of paper between the window and the frame, the seals were terrible. It might also be worth checking that they filled any gaps on the outside of the house, we found a huge gap underneath one of the windows that they had missed. Once filled in that got rid of a major draught.

Bob

Edit - Here is the thread where I discussed my problems originally
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Edited by RedLCRB0b on Sunday 10th January 13:49

Hi Bob

I'm glad I'm not the only one & thanks for the link. We've also had whistling windows.

I have already raised the 'gaps around the seals' issue with the fitters as I'd noticed that some windows seemed to be closed much tighter onto the frame than others — obvious just by running a finger along the seal. Their response was that they couldn't bring them in any tighter because it would damage the hinges.

[Spudler]

For some odd reason I'm getting an error message when i try and load a picture. Anyway, basically you need to look at the 90deg top corner and you'll see a welded joint, make sure this lines up with the joint on the frame when its closed without the handle in the closed position. It should be perfectly in line.
Also, if you have a level check the frame for plumb/upright at both ends and where the opener meets the frame.

[mrsshpub]

Spudler said:

For some odd reason I'm getting an error message when i try and load a picture. Anyway, basically you need to look at the 90deg top corner and you'll see a welded joint, make sure this lines up with the joint on the frame when its closed without the handle in the closed position. It should be perfectly in line.
Also, if you have a level check the frame for plumb/upright at both ends and where the opener meets the frame.

The top corner welds aren't both in line. The one on the hinge side corner looks OK — but on the opening edge corner, the weld on the opener is noticeably lower than the one on the frame. With the window shut, the top of the weld starts about 1/8" below the window frame.

I've now had a quick look at some of the other openers & a significant proportion have misaligned welds at the top — some at the hinge corner, some at the opening corner & some on both. The maximum misalignment seems to be around 1/4". Do we have a big problem here? It does seem a bit of a coincidence that the draughty window is the one I spend some time sat next to & I'm beginning to suspect that we may have several others.

I've checked the frame with a spirit level & both sides of the frame seem vertical.

Would the picture you mention be useful in my impending 'discussions' with the installers? If so, could you email me a copy if I send you my email address via your profile?

Following Bob's comments about gaps between the seals & the openers (something I've already raised with the installers, without a satisfactory response) — is a gap wide enough to easily slip a piece of thin cardboard through to the frame acceptable? We seem to have variation between 'quite tight' and a distinct gap.

[mk1fan]

The trikle vent isn't open is it?

There's a 13 degree difference between the outside temp and the inside glass so they must be doing something right. Although the poor fit does sound like a point to clear up. I'd certainly check the external pointing around the frame too.

[mrsshpub]

mk1fan said:

The trikle vent isn't open is it?

There's a 13 degree difference between the outside temp and the inside glass so they must be doing something right. Although the poor fit does sound like a point to clear up. I'd certainly check the external pointing around the frame too.

We don't have trickle vents.

[Spudler]

It does sound like the misalignment is a big factor, if not THE problem. A tolerance of a couple of millimeters either way is fine but not to the degree you've mentioned. There's no excuse for the company to say that's normal, if they do then the frame falls well below an acceptable standard.
The picture i tried to send was a close-up of the welded joints being inline, it sounds like your well aware of what things should look like now. I will still try and send a pic via your PH email. The gaps around the outside of the frame sound right, we measure with a tolerance of about 3-5mm either side of the frame externally. Its a very easy problem for them to get over, i think once pointed out they'll be obliging.

[mrsshpub]

Spudler said:

It does sound like the misalignment is a big factor, if not THE problem. A tolerance of a couple of millimeters either way is fine but not to the degree you've mentioned. There's no excuse for the company to say that's normal, if they do then the frame falls well below an acceptable standard.

Many thanks. YHM

Spudler said:

The gaps around the outside of the frame sound right, we measure with a tolerance of about 3-5mm either side of the frame externally. Its a very easy problem for them to get over, i think once pointed out they'll be obliging.

Not sure I've been quite clear here: I meant that the gap between the frame & the opener, with the window closed & locked, is still big enough to easily slide a piece of thin cardboard through i.e. the opener is not 'tight' onto the frame.

[Spudler]

Blimey! no you shouldn't be able to get any card, or even paper in there.
My thinking is that the window has dropped slightly (re Packers) and the locking bolts aren't sliding up the mechanism (on the frame) to the full extent therefore not pulling the window in enough to form a seal. Hope that made some kind of sense

[darronwall]

if the sashes are quite large it sounds like the window is fitted out of twist,or needs toe and heeling due to being out of square,easy to remedy for someone who knows what they are doing

[mk1fan]

Why do you not have trickle vents?