Fueling issue/software upgrade?
Discussion
In the few months I've owned my '05 A4 Avant S-Line 2.0 Tdi, it's had a niggly starting problem. Coughs a bit before it "catches" properly, almost as if it's running on 2, then 3 then all 4 cylinders.
Curiously, a bit of welly more or less eliminates it, but I still want it sorting. My local indy has looked at it, and everything checks out, apart from something along the lines of the car is running an old version of software on the ECU which basically means it's being underfuelled on startup. The box to upload the new software to the car is several thousand pounds, and my indy does not have one, so they say I need a main dealer and it's a very quick and easy job to update it.
Will I have to pay for this, or is it on a recall or similar?
I hate to say this, but much as I love the look and the feel-good factor of my car, it's not been a great ownership experience so far on my first Audi. First was the whole oil pump chain tensioner episode, and now this...it seems that Audi seems to be selling cars that were not properly developed in the first place, if they are needing to go back for what I consider to be design flaw modifications and now software updates! I'm half expecting the computer to flash up "A4 has encountered a problem and needs to close. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused. Would you like to send an error report to Wolfsburg?"
Curiously, a bit of welly more or less eliminates it, but I still want it sorting. My local indy has looked at it, and everything checks out, apart from something along the lines of the car is running an old version of software on the ECU which basically means it's being underfuelled on startup. The box to upload the new software to the car is several thousand pounds, and my indy does not have one, so they say I need a main dealer and it's a very quick and easy job to update it.
Will I have to pay for this, or is it on a recall or similar?
I hate to say this, but much as I love the look and the feel-good factor of my car, it's not been a great ownership experience so far on my first Audi. First was the whole oil pump chain tensioner episode, and now this...it seems that Audi seems to be selling cars that were not properly developed in the first place, if they are needing to go back for what I consider to be design flaw modifications and now software updates! I'm half expecting the computer to flash up "A4 has encountered a problem and needs to close. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused. Would you like to send an error report to Wolfsburg?"
There are loads of software update and things these days, very rarely is it anything serious. We do actually send data from the car off to germany (very much like a microsoft error report).
If your car is due an enharncement that includes a software update then it will be free. An enharncement, aka service action, is basically a recall (but we dont use the word recall without any danger or safety aspect) or people get upset that there car is being recalled. When infact its just been noticed that some of the software can be improved, all the newer cars start coming like that from the factory, and all the older cars get updated next time they come into the centre. Again much like having auto update on your microsoft PC.
There are some other software updates, to fix specific concerns, attached to a TPL (A TPL being inforamtion available to technicians to help fix known faults, stored on a searchable data base) These are only free while the car is under waranty, outside of waranty these types of repair/update are chargable.
You can ring your local Audi centre or Audi customer services, armed with your vin number and they can check if any free enharncements are due.
I'm, not sure I've ever done a software update for that particular concern, so it may be somthing else. There are a large number ot other things that can make the car not start right away. Weak glow plugs or slightly low fuel pressure from a worn tandem pump, or leaking injector seals can cause this issue.
But if its due a free update, get it done first and see if its any better.
If its not due a free update, my advise is go to the Audi centre, ask if you can speak to the master tech, and tell him what the other garage said about your car having very early software and the fault you having, ask him nicely if he could check the TPL's and see if there is an update to fix it. And give you the cost of having it done, so you can decide if you want to or not. Normally they take about 0.5hrs labour, but some are as much as 0.9.
If your car is due an enharncement that includes a software update then it will be free. An enharncement, aka service action, is basically a recall (but we dont use the word recall without any danger or safety aspect) or people get upset that there car is being recalled. When infact its just been noticed that some of the software can be improved, all the newer cars start coming like that from the factory, and all the older cars get updated next time they come into the centre. Again much like having auto update on your microsoft PC.
There are some other software updates, to fix specific concerns, attached to a TPL (A TPL being inforamtion available to technicians to help fix known faults, stored on a searchable data base) These are only free while the car is under waranty, outside of waranty these types of repair/update are chargable.
You can ring your local Audi centre or Audi customer services, armed with your vin number and they can check if any free enharncements are due.
I'm, not sure I've ever done a software update for that particular concern, so it may be somthing else. There are a large number ot other things that can make the car not start right away. Weak glow plugs or slightly low fuel pressure from a worn tandem pump, or leaking injector seals can cause this issue.
But if its due a free update, get it done first and see if its any better.
If its not due a free update, my advise is go to the Audi centre, ask if you can speak to the master tech, and tell him what the other garage said about your car having very early software and the fault you having, ask him nicely if he could check the TPL's and see if there is an update to fix it. And give you the cost of having it done, so you can decide if you want to or not. Normally they take about 0.5hrs labour, but some are as much as 0.9.
Thanks very much TT, I'll take that advice and see what the VIN throws up.
My indy is an ex-master technician who did suggest all of what you mentioned as a possible cause, however he checked all of the above and says it checks out fine, apart from the software issue.
I will report back when I know a bit more!
Thanks again!
My indy is an ex-master technician who did suggest all of what you mentioned as a possible cause, however he checked all of the above and says it checks out fine, apart from the software issue.
I will report back when I know a bit more!
Thanks again!
OK I'm just about at the end of my tether with this now.
Things got progressively worse during the winter and I decided to do something about it. My local indy (ex VAG master technician) assured me the software level was a problematic one, but could not update it as he did not have the VAG box of tricks to upload the software, only diagnose. So I bit the bullet and went main dealer.
Dealer checked it, and assured me that the software was already the latest version. They suspected leaking injectors, so removed all four, left them on the bench overnight, and came back in the morning to discover that two had been "leaking loads of diesel everywhere". Two new injectors were required at a cost of bend right over sir thankyou very much.
I got the car back, and for a second I thought it coughed as I left the dealership, but I thought it must have been me not used to the heavier A4 clutch compared with the superlight A3 courtesy car 'd been driving for a bit. But it's coughed a few times since when pulling away in first, feels like a clutch induced "kangaroo".
And then this morning, less than a week, and £1400 later, it was back to it's old ways. 10-15 seconds of cranking before it eventually spluttered into life one cylinder at a time.
I'm waiting for a call back from the dealer. Where do I stand? As I see it, I asked the dealer to sort my car, I've paid handsomely for it, and they have failed.
In the meantime, another friend in the trade has told me that his understanding is that the car has Piezo injectors, and although they can leak around the seal that goes around where they join the head, they cannot physically leak themselves and "fill the cylinder with diesel" as the Audi dealer has described it. I have asked to see the old injectors but it can't be done as they are exchange units. At £600 a pop.
Can anyone (especially TT!) shed any light on this? It grates me that my M reg 165000 mile Discovery which cost less to buy in it's entirity than my last Audi garage bill starts and runs better than this alledged premium german car.
Any help really, really appreciated.
Things got progressively worse during the winter and I decided to do something about it. My local indy (ex VAG master technician) assured me the software level was a problematic one, but could not update it as he did not have the VAG box of tricks to upload the software, only diagnose. So I bit the bullet and went main dealer.
Dealer checked it, and assured me that the software was already the latest version. They suspected leaking injectors, so removed all four, left them on the bench overnight, and came back in the morning to discover that two had been "leaking loads of diesel everywhere". Two new injectors were required at a cost of bend right over sir thankyou very much.
I got the car back, and for a second I thought it coughed as I left the dealership, but I thought it must have been me not used to the heavier A4 clutch compared with the superlight A3 courtesy car 'd been driving for a bit. But it's coughed a few times since when pulling away in first, feels like a clutch induced "kangaroo".
And then this morning, less than a week, and £1400 later, it was back to it's old ways. 10-15 seconds of cranking before it eventually spluttered into life one cylinder at a time.
I'm waiting for a call back from the dealer. Where do I stand? As I see it, I asked the dealer to sort my car, I've paid handsomely for it, and they have failed.
In the meantime, another friend in the trade has told me that his understanding is that the car has Piezo injectors, and although they can leak around the seal that goes around where they join the head, they cannot physically leak themselves and "fill the cylinder with diesel" as the Audi dealer has described it. I have asked to see the old injectors but it can't be done as they are exchange units. At £600 a pop.
Can anyone (especially TT!) shed any light on this? It grates me that my M reg 165000 mile Discovery which cost less to buy in it's entirity than my last Audi garage bill starts and runs better than this alledged premium german car.
Any help really, really appreciated.
Take it back to them and complain, but dont masivly kick off, that just doesnt help, but do point out you paid £1400 or what ever it is and the car is the same.
If possible ask to speak to the master tech, so you can explain to him first hand exactly what the car is doing wrong, it might be worth asking the question, "Is there not a TPI with a software update to fix poor starting on these?"
If there not saying all the right things, ask them for the phone number for Audi customer services, they have to give it to you, then make a call to them.
The injectors are not Pizo crystal on the 140bhp engines, I'm asumming at 2005 MY yours is that. But they are PD injectors.
I cant see hoe they can do any leak test on PD injectors that just not how they work. An injecotr leak test has to be done with fuel pressure in the injector, any you only get them when the engine is running. We dont even say the injectors are leaking we say the "injector seals" are leaking as in where they are sealed to the head.
(that said often there is miscomunication between the technical mind of the technician working on the car, and the non technical, but customer facing mind, of the service advisor) we call it lost in translation, it happens rather to much actually.
If possible ask to speak to the master tech, so you can explain to him first hand exactly what the car is doing wrong, it might be worth asking the question, "Is there not a TPI with a software update to fix poor starting on these?"
If there not saying all the right things, ask them for the phone number for Audi customer services, they have to give it to you, then make a call to them.
The injectors are not Pizo crystal on the 140bhp engines, I'm asumming at 2005 MY yours is that. But they are PD injectors.
I cant see hoe they can do any leak test on PD injectors that just not how they work. An injecotr leak test has to be done with fuel pressure in the injector, any you only get them when the engine is running. We dont even say the injectors are leaking we say the "injector seals" are leaking as in where they are sealed to the head.
(that said often there is miscomunication between the technical mind of the technician working on the car, and the non technical, but customer facing mind, of the service advisor) we call it lost in translation, it happens rather to much actually.
Thanks again TT and here's the latest update.
I spoke to the workshop manager, who said that 2 injectors were leaking badly, and 2 were dribbling. Now, I am mighty, mighty pissed off about that. Depite having asked the "customer facing" service people many times about was it just 2, was anything else about to give up, I was NEVER told 4 were in effect a bit suspect. I was told 2, my limit was 2, so I had it done. Had I been told it could be up to 4, I would have px'd or ebayed.
So it went back last Monday, workshop manager then backtraked a lot and said the 2 dribbly ones were well within limits and would not cause issues. So he then carried out what is apparently an approved modifciation putting a smaller gasket in the EGR valve and said it was good. So I turned up on Friday, expecting all to be well, and yet again slightly hesitant starting, a bit of a puff of smoke, and what felt like it running on three and a half cylinders for a second or two.
So it's going back in yet again on Monday, and we'll see what happens.
As I said, end of my tether!
I spoke to the workshop manager, who said that 2 injectors were leaking badly, and 2 were dribbling. Now, I am mighty, mighty pissed off about that. Depite having asked the "customer facing" service people many times about was it just 2, was anything else about to give up, I was NEVER told 4 were in effect a bit suspect. I was told 2, my limit was 2, so I had it done. Had I been told it could be up to 4, I would have px'd or ebayed.
So it went back last Monday, workshop manager then backtraked a lot and said the 2 dribbly ones were well within limits and would not cause issues. So he then carried out what is apparently an approved modifciation putting a smaller gasket in the EGR valve and said it was good. So I turned up on Friday, expecting all to be well, and yet again slightly hesitant starting, a bit of a puff of smoke, and what felt like it running on three and a half cylinders for a second or two.
So it's going back in yet again on Monday, and we'll see what happens.
As I said, end of my tether!
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