Replacement Gas Boiler
Discussion
I have a G-rated Ideal Classic NF60 at the moment which is about 12 years old I think. It has been faultless until last year when the fan went down, the cost to replace it was horrendous but we had it done and that's a war story for another time.
The boiler is running fine although not as efficiently as a condenser one and as the Govt is offering £400 towards the cost of a replacement and British Gas are matching it I thought I would get them round for a quote. Its a simple one for one replacement, new one would go on the wall exactly where the old one sits and the controls all stay the same. It's a regular system with the cylinder in the airing cupboard with the pump and motorised valve and header tank in the loft.
First disagreement was over the choice of boiler because I told him I had a preference for a Worcester Bosch or possibly a Valliant. Apparently it was the first time anyone had asked for one of those for this kind of installation in his four years of doing this job (?). We discussed it and he put forward the argument that those two makers were maybe first choice for Combi boilers but for a regular system I would be better off with a Baxi, Potterton or Gloworm.
As there is little difference in price I had him quote for the Baxi and was more than a little surprised with the number that popped out of his laptop - £2245
For some inexplicable reason I had it in mind the quote should be more than acceptable given the simplicity of the installation, how wrong I was. I walked through a breakdown of the cost and with boiler and sundries at about £850 max. they want to charge me £1395 for about 1.5 days work - extortionate. It was then explained their installation price is really a package price that will apply to any install that doesn't involve moving the boiler more than 3 metres. Unfortunately as mine moves probably less than a centimetre in total that doesn't make me feel any better.
So, two questions:
1) Is he right about the boiler manufacturer for my installation ?
2) Am I likely to get a much better deal through an independent local fitter ? I will be getting other quotes anyway but there is a comfort factor with British Gas, be it real or perceived.
Any other thoughts and opinions are welcome.
The boiler is running fine although not as efficiently as a condenser one and as the Govt is offering £400 towards the cost of a replacement and British Gas are matching it I thought I would get them round for a quote. Its a simple one for one replacement, new one would go on the wall exactly where the old one sits and the controls all stay the same. It's a regular system with the cylinder in the airing cupboard with the pump and motorised valve and header tank in the loft.
First disagreement was over the choice of boiler because I told him I had a preference for a Worcester Bosch or possibly a Valliant. Apparently it was the first time anyone had asked for one of those for this kind of installation in his four years of doing this job (?). We discussed it and he put forward the argument that those two makers were maybe first choice for Combi boilers but for a regular system I would be better off with a Baxi, Potterton or Gloworm.
As there is little difference in price I had him quote for the Baxi and was more than a little surprised with the number that popped out of his laptop - £2245
For some inexplicable reason I had it in mind the quote should be more than acceptable given the simplicity of the installation, how wrong I was. I walked through a breakdown of the cost and with boiler and sundries at about £850 max. they want to charge me £1395 for about 1.5 days work - extortionate. It was then explained their installation price is really a package price that will apply to any install that doesn't involve moving the boiler more than 3 metres. Unfortunately as mine moves probably less than a centimetre in total that doesn't make me feel any better.
So, two questions:
1) Is he right about the boiler manufacturer for my installation ?
2) Am I likely to get a much better deal through an independent local fitter ? I will be getting other quotes anyway but there is a comfort factor with British Gas, be it real or perceived.
Any other thoughts and opinions are welcome.
Ferg said:
My thoughts?
"there is a comfort factor with British Gas, be it real or perceived."
Is there?????
It's a question of personal experience I guess. They installed the original twelve years ago and at that time I had no idea whether the price I paid was good, bad or indifferent but it wasn't too far off a quote I had from a local fitter. Last year I could have had them fix the fan and I know now that it would have cost me just under half what the local scammer charged me. "there is a comfort factor with British Gas, be it real or perceived."
Is there?????
Vaillant are not devoid of 'problems'; we have an exclusive 838 and have had 3 pumps in as many years.
Apparently (according to approved installer) for this model Vaillant decided that they coudl do a better job of the pump than a third party supplier. Their design however used a nylon impeller and bearing set as opposed to metal as it used to be. Any dirt in the system can (and has in my case) damage the impeller, send it out of true, knacker the bearings and render the pump unusable. Vaillants line is that the pump is sealed and cannot be repaired, a replacement will set you back £200. Our plumber managed to disassemble one and showed me the damage and the huge tolerance that existed between the shaft and the bearing. Its a design flaw.
We now have all new rads, a MagnaFlow, rust inhibitor and have drained the system best part of 20 times over those 3 years so hopefully the CH fluid is pretty clear of debris. No problems for the last 12 months (fingers crossed)
Dr Rick
Apparently (according to approved installer) for this model Vaillant decided that they coudl do a better job of the pump than a third party supplier. Their design however used a nylon impeller and bearing set as opposed to metal as it used to be. Any dirt in the system can (and has in my case) damage the impeller, send it out of true, knacker the bearings and render the pump unusable. Vaillants line is that the pump is sealed and cannot be repaired, a replacement will set you back £200. Our plumber managed to disassemble one and showed me the damage and the huge tolerance that existed between the shaft and the bearing. Its a design flaw.
We now have all new rads, a MagnaFlow, rust inhibitor and have drained the system best part of 20 times over those 3 years so hopefully the CH fluid is pretty clear of debris. No problems for the last 12 months (fingers crossed)
Dr Rick
Hereward said:
I would rather freeze to death soaked in my own urine than let anyone from BG work on my property.
I would agree, lately they have tried to bill me as 'The Customer' for a period prior to my ownership of my current house. This situation had occurred once before and resulted in compensation before I could get a satisfactory conclusion to an account that didn't exist. Now they've started again.I even asked them on the phone whether they were trained in harassing the general public, didn't get an answer for that one. I couldn't even speak to the signatory on the letter (Head of Debt Recovery); was told that he didn't speak to customers. I pointed out that I wasn't a customer and that I would rather burn my own furniture than be a BG customer. Didn't get an answer for that one either. They casually asked for my name (I refused as they would simply re-start correspondence with my name at the top making me more open to liability), yet they managed to find my name after two minutes on hold by accessing historical records for the address.
I hate BG with a passion.
Dr Rick
I had a 2nd quote done today by a local guy who has all the right credentials and a good reputation. It differs a little from the previous one as I changed the requirements.
Firstly, it's for a Vaillant boiler which I need because we have a water softener and they are the only ones with a s/steel heat exchanger. Can't get a straight mains feed to the boiler location without a lot of messy pipework and Vaillant have a good reputation anyway. Also changing the pump in the airing cupboard for an energy efficient one. Flue is changing direction and going up through the roof instead of out the wall as current (and as BG wanted to leave). Also adding a Magnaclean filter into the circuit.
Total comes out to £2100, but waiting on written quote as it may come down a little if he can get a better deal on the boiler.
In the meantime I had called the BG advisor back to have him change his quote to reflect change of flue direction and boiler make. That was three days ago and the only way to contact him is by mobile phone, left message and no response. Not impressed but will reserve judgement for a few more days.
This seems to be heading in the direction of me going with the independent and paying a couple of hundred pounds more for peace of mind and avoidance of BG. BG are only cheaper anyway because of the £400 they will use to match the Govt deal if I can get it and the fact that they aren't adding a new pump and the Magaclean.
Firstly, it's for a Vaillant boiler which I need because we have a water softener and they are the only ones with a s/steel heat exchanger. Can't get a straight mains feed to the boiler location without a lot of messy pipework and Vaillant have a good reputation anyway. Also changing the pump in the airing cupboard for an energy efficient one. Flue is changing direction and going up through the roof instead of out the wall as current (and as BG wanted to leave). Also adding a Magnaclean filter into the circuit.
Total comes out to £2100, but waiting on written quote as it may come down a little if he can get a better deal on the boiler.
In the meantime I had called the BG advisor back to have him change his quote to reflect change of flue direction and boiler make. That was three days ago and the only way to contact him is by mobile phone, left message and no response. Not impressed but will reserve judgement for a few more days.
This seems to be heading in the direction of me going with the independent and paying a couple of hundred pounds more for peace of mind and avoidance of BG. BG are only cheaper anyway because of the £400 they will use to match the Govt deal if I can get it and the fact that they aren't adding a new pump and the Magaclean.
I'm a sparks.
Twenty odd years ago a mates girlfriend asked me to quote a rewire for her old aunts place (small 1 bed house or maisonette i think) as she was quoted by southern electric and wanted a second opinion.
Priced it fairly....not "too keen"
Came out around £1500.
Her jaw dropped and i thought she was gonna chin me and accuse me of being a rip off merchant!!
She then produced S.E. quote.....No change out of £3500
Advertising and a large corporation backing saddles you with large overheads......and i mean large, and i see only one way of clawing those monies back.
Find a local boy with Gas safe registration, make sure he lives off his rep and not advertising and you have all the guarantee you need......i will return to any job i've done without hesitation and make good any fault for nishpence and apologise profusely.(thankfully rare)
(mind you, if you pay attention to some of the Nimrods on these forums, you'd end up doing a "good enough" job yourself. "Plumbers are overpaid" and like electrics its "easier than it looks").......we did 5 year apprentiships cos we liked living on Two-bob aweek)
Good luck with the project
Twenty odd years ago a mates girlfriend asked me to quote a rewire for her old aunts place (small 1 bed house or maisonette i think) as she was quoted by southern electric and wanted a second opinion.
Priced it fairly....not "too keen"
Came out around £1500.
Her jaw dropped and i thought she was gonna chin me and accuse me of being a rip off merchant!!
She then produced S.E. quote.....No change out of £3500
Advertising and a large corporation backing saddles you with large overheads......and i mean large, and i see only one way of clawing those monies back.
Find a local boy with Gas safe registration, make sure he lives off his rep and not advertising and you have all the guarantee you need......i will return to any job i've done without hesitation and make good any fault for nishpence and apologise profusely.(thankfully rare)
(mind you, if you pay attention to some of the Nimrods on these forums, you'd end up doing a "good enough" job yourself. "Plumbers are overpaid" and like electrics its "easier than it looks").......we did 5 year apprentiships cos we liked living on Two-bob aweek)
Good luck with the project
Ferg said:
Which Vaillant? I've just had to sort out warranty service calls on two Ecotec Plus'.
Incidentally, 'only ones with stainless steel heat exchangers'..???????
It would be a Vaillant Ecotec plus 428, what were the problems with the ones in your service calls if you don't mind me asking ? Incidentally, 'only ones with stainless steel heat exchangers'..???????
If you can tell me which of the other makes has the s/steel then happy to consider them, WB apparently does not. I'm making a bit of an assumption that was the basis of your question, if not then please explain.
The two Ecotecs I've just attended have one of the noisiest fans I've heard in a while and a water leak from a joint between the heat exchanger and a rubber hose (which they use to take up expansion, I assume).
Various manufacturers use Stainless heat exchangers, but I was actually questioning the Vaillant being stainless. It's a Stainless/Plastic hybrid.
Various manufacturers use Stainless heat exchangers, but I was actually questioning the Vaillant being stainless. It's a Stainless/Plastic hybrid.
Ferg said:
The two Ecotecs I've just attended have one of the noisiest fans I've heard in a while and a water leak from a joint between the heat exchanger and a rubber hose (which they use to take up expansion, I assume).
Various manufacturers use Stainless heat exchangers, but I was actually questioning the Vaillant being stainless. It's a Stainless/Plastic hybrid.
Thanks, so are the W-B's s/steel ? The guy who quoted me seemed to think not. Correct me if I'm wrong but even as a stainless/plastic hybrid the Vaillant will still be suitable for my application ? (Noisy fans and leaks aside)Various manufacturers use Stainless heat exchangers, but I was actually questioning the Vaillant being stainless. It's a Stainless/Plastic hybrid.
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