Base Tune for Ultima GTR / LS-7 Needed
Discussion
I'm having a big problem with the original set-up of my LS-7 engine. The system runs way too rich. This results in poor idling and the motor choking off easily. Before I'm reinventing the wheel I'm wondering whether anybody on this forum has a good base tune for an LS-x powered Ultima GTR with factory stock exhaust system. I got myself the HP Tuner software. So a tuning file that works with this software would be great. This is going to be my first attempt at ECU programming. All tips & tricks are most welcome!
Cheers,
Willy
Cheers,
Willy
you can go to DATAFAST and download their software and the LS7 file my engine supplier has created for
my engine, runs perfect. I think the LS7 file comes in the software package they have for download, it has an offline mode.
You probably can copy the values from the tables there into the HP tuner software.
One thing, my engine is controlled by the Manifold pressure only, it has a mechanical throttle with no pot installed so keep that
in mind when you are using the data.
my engine, runs perfect. I think the LS7 file comes in the software package they have for download, it has an offline mode.
You probably can copy the values from the tables there into the HP tuner software.
One thing, my engine is controlled by the Manifold pressure only, it has a mechanical throttle with no pot installed so keep that
in mind when you are using the data.
Edited by spatz on Thursday 14th January 14:44
Hi Willy - Register and log on to the HP tuners support site (you use your ID that came with your tuner hardware)- lots of good pointers and "experts" willing to give a hand on the forum too.
A copy of a Corvette Z06 base tune can be found here --> http://www.mediafire.com/?diuwzgwyti2
You may want to download this file and use the HP tuners software to "compare" the two tunes. This will highlight any differences for you.
If this is your first time around ECU maps than I'd recommend climbing the learning curve quite a bit before you start to modify the maps or even uploading new ones to the ECU. You have the potential to do serious harm to your engine if you configure inappropriately.
HTH
A copy of a Corvette Z06 base tune can be found here --> http://www.mediafire.com/?diuwzgwyti2
You may want to download this file and use the HP tuners software to "compare" the two tunes. This will highlight any differences for you.
If this is your first time around ECU maps than I'd recommend climbing the learning curve quite a bit before you start to modify the maps or even uploading new ones to the ECU. You have the potential to do serious harm to your engine if you configure inappropriately.
HTH
Edited by RussF on Thursday 14th January 20:28
Thanks for all the responses guys!
> spatz: Will have a look at DATAFAST. Probably need to do a good deal more reading though before I can fiddle with it.
> crafty: Great. We should meet up when you have time. Will give you a buzz to fix a time. Would be good to have a safe pair of hands around.
> RussF: Yeah, taking the standard Z06 base tune was my first thought. But figured that a working Ultima GTR LS-7 tune would be even better. Thanks very much for your PM! I'll contact you shortly.
> Gulf LS3: I'm based in Singapore. Together with my buddy Bernard, we built the first Ultima in this part of the world. The only other one I know of is Crafty's in HK. Local shops don't really have any GM / LS-x expertise.
> ecuboss: American Speed outsources tuning of the engine. From day one the tune was off. No matter what we fiddled with (checking exhaust system for leaks, sensors, etc) it kept running rich. Final conclusion now is that the tune is way off mark after running some numbers and using a wide-band O2 sensor. the idle AFR is around 8.5, much lower than 14.7.
American Speed mentioned that the tune was done without the factory stock exhaust strapped on and that this makes a huge difference. Bottomline is I'm stuck with an ECU which is way off base. The tuner locked it, so i can't even load up another tune. I have 2 choices: Spend more money to get exact same software he used to unlock it or install a new "blank" GM E38 ECU and put in a base tune from someone with ideally the same Ultima LS-7 set-up. ... Or is there a way to "crack" a locked ECU?
> spatz: Will have a look at DATAFAST. Probably need to do a good deal more reading though before I can fiddle with it.
> crafty: Great. We should meet up when you have time. Will give you a buzz to fix a time. Would be good to have a safe pair of hands around.
> RussF: Yeah, taking the standard Z06 base tune was my first thought. But figured that a working Ultima GTR LS-7 tune would be even better. Thanks very much for your PM! I'll contact you shortly.
> Gulf LS3: I'm based in Singapore. Together with my buddy Bernard, we built the first Ultima in this part of the world. The only other one I know of is Crafty's in HK. Local shops don't really have any GM / LS-x expertise.
> ecuboss: American Speed outsources tuning of the engine. From day one the tune was off. No matter what we fiddled with (checking exhaust system for leaks, sensors, etc) it kept running rich. Final conclusion now is that the tune is way off mark after running some numbers and using a wide-band O2 sensor. the idle AFR is around 8.5, much lower than 14.7.
American Speed mentioned that the tune was done without the factory stock exhaust strapped on and that this makes a huge difference. Bottomline is I'm stuck with an ECU which is way off base. The tuner locked it, so i can't even load up another tune. I have 2 choices: Spend more money to get exact same software he used to unlock it or install a new "blank" GM E38 ECU and put in a base tune from someone with ideally the same Ultima LS-7 set-up. ... Or is there a way to "crack" a locked ECU?
Dear Willy,
I think if there is no need for OBD2 interface you should go with the DTAFAST S80PRO ECU and my LS7 map, which is now configured to work with 2 Innovate Lambda wide band controllers. (I did that myself, it was not too complicated).
I can turn on/off the closed loop by a switch on the dash and it is easily programmable. Without the closed loop I am already quite close to 1 (do not know the AFR value) once the closed loop is activated I have +/-2 % around 1 with the ECU creating automatically a fuel correction map that you can have a look at.
From what I hear and read is that from the known engine suppliers out of the states the LS engine mapping was not too great. SchimmS can tell you a story !
I think if there is no need for OBD2 interface you should go with the DTAFAST S80PRO ECU and my LS7 map, which is now configured to work with 2 Innovate Lambda wide band controllers. (I did that myself, it was not too complicated).
I can turn on/off the closed loop by a switch on the dash and it is easily programmable. Without the closed loop I am already quite close to 1 (do not know the AFR value) once the closed loop is activated I have +/-2 % around 1 with the ECU creating automatically a fuel correction map that you can have a look at.
From what I hear and read is that from the known engine suppliers out of the states the LS engine mapping was not too great. SchimmS can tell you a story !
If the Gm ecu is setup correctly there will not be any issues!!! I would buy a unlocked E67 motorsport ecu from the States (under $200) and map it with either your Hp or EFI live. The GM ecu is a great bit of kit and has everything we need to run a LSX in an Ultima. GM spent millions developing it, why use after market when the engine will with a little work run great with the manufacturers designed products.
The exhaust headers are a different story.... i dont understand (well i do) why people map with different headers and then claim stupid figures that will never stack up in our applications. We will be mapping our supercharged engines with our 2" headers(that will be going in the car) and thus giving realistic installed figures. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind!!
The exhaust headers are a different story.... i dont understand (well i do) why people map with different headers and then claim stupid figures that will never stack up in our applications. We will be mapping our supercharged engines with our 2" headers(that will be going in the car) and thus giving realistic installed figures. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind!!
Gulf LS3 said:
If the Gm ecu is setup correctly there will not be any issues!!! I would buy a unlocked E67 motorsport ecu from the States (under $200) and map it with either your Hp or EFI live. The GM ecu is a great bit of kit and has everything we need to run a LSX in an Ultima. GM spent millions developing it, why use after market when the engine will with a little work run great with the manufacturers designed products.
The exhaust headers are a different story.... i dont understand (well i do) why people map with different headers and then claim stupid figures that will never stack up in our applications. We will be mapping our supercharged engines with our 2" headers(that will be going in the car) and thus giving realistic installed figures. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind!!
So......you mean we don't always need to 'create' big numbers to 'achieve' those little ones on the results boards ? ....The exhaust headers are a different story.... i dont understand (well i do) why people map with different headers and then claim stupid figures that will never stack up in our applications. We will be mapping our supercharged engines with our 2" headers(that will be going in the car) and thus giving realistic installed figures. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind!!
wb200 said:
American Speed mentioned that the tune was done without the factory stock exhaust strapped on and that this makes a huge difference. Bottomline is I'm stuck with an ECU which is way off base. The tuner locked it, so i can't even load up another tune. I have 2 choices: Spend more money to get exact same software he used to unlock it or install a new "blank" GM E38 ECU and put in a base tune from someone with ideally the same Ultima LS-7 set-up. ... Or is there a way to "crack" a locked ECU?
So the factory approved engine provider dosn't set the engine up to run properly in the factory car?????? Worrying. Surely the engine in the Ultima section of the A.S. engine ads have to be set up to run in the car.
Have the guys in the U.K. had a problem?
Dave
wb200 said:
> ecuboss: American Speed outsources tuning of the engine. From day one the tune was off. No matter what we fiddled with (checking exhaust system for leaks, sensors, etc) it kept running rich. Final conclusion now is that the tune is way off mark after running some numbers and using a wide-band O2 sensor. the idle AFR is around 8.5, much lower than 14.7.
American Speed mentioned that the tune was done without the factory stock exhaust strapped on and that this makes a huge difference. Bottomline is I'm stuck with an ECU which is way off base. The tuner locked it, so i can't even load up another tune. I have 2 choices: Spend more money to get exact same software he used to unlock it or install a new "blank" GM E38 ECU and put in a base tune from someone with ideally the same Ultima LS-7 set-up. ... Or is there a way to "crack" a locked ECU?
I think there may be ways of unlocking it, but its not readily discussed. You may need to send your ECU to on of the US tuning shops. So you may as well just score a replacement ECU and a copy of HP tuners and sort it out yourself. Definately stick with the OEM ecu - they really good and you have full access to them with EFI Live or HPT.American Speed mentioned that the tune was done without the factory stock exhaust strapped on and that this makes a huge difference. Bottomline is I'm stuck with an ECU which is way off base. The tuner locked it, so i can't even load up another tune. I have 2 choices: Spend more money to get exact same software he used to unlock it or install a new "blank" GM E38 ECU and put in a base tune from someone with ideally the same Ultima LS-7 set-up. ... Or is there a way to "crack" a locked ECU?
Guys
Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
stringvest1971 said:
Guys
Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
I am NOT a guru, and I don't know the answers to the questions.Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
What I CAN tell you is that AS tuned and dynoed the LS7 I bought from them. They then sent over the ECU they used, the wiring loom they used and the engine.
The engine was installed for me at the factory using a factory exhaust system and it runs absolutely perfectly.
If you buy from AS the EXACT set-up (apart from headers and exhaust, which you should use factory spec, if you don't buy them from the factory) that they used when they dynoed it, it's going to work - guaranteed.
Regards
Edited by pilbeam_mp62 on Thursday 21st January 09:42
Edited by pilbeam_mp62 on Thursday 21st January 09:45
stringvest1971 said:
Guys
Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
Basically the engine dyno cell is a completely different environment to the running environment in a GTR.Please bear with me on this, but it is an interesting point.
If AS use a different exhaust system to set up the engine whilst it is on the dyno, why would the standard Ultima unit not work with the ecu tune?
1) Is it down to primary size, suspect AS manifolds on their dyno are larger.
2) Are the primary lenghts different?
3) Where are the Lamda sensors positioned i.e. hotter or colder position?
4) System back pressure differences?
5) Do we have wildly varing atmospheric conditions?
6) Suspect AS don't use CATS?
Would be good to have the guru's opinions on this.
A combination of this and differing headers, silencers, fuels and many other minor details can amount to quite a large overall change in how a motor performs. The engine dyno gives you peak power and torque figures and is a fair starting point. However, changing only one item.....as said the headers for example, will affect the post install results.
Usually in the Ultima case the engines run rich after installation.
Warm air is less dense....therefore A/F ratio's are altered (more so in the case of a carb).
If you reduce air density by 10% in a N/A engine you will potentially lose 10% power.
A rich motor will miss out on HP just the same as a lean one.
EFI goes some way towards helping and so is maybe less noticable post install.
In the states engine builders like torque and maintaining higher exhaust gas temps / velocities, maybe this is at the expense of increased overall heating.
In this application Im not so sure we need low end torque in the same way as drag racers.
Ramming in cold air is often explored but you need to exhaust the expanded hot air through 2 -4 times the inlet area.
Hotter air always rises.
Stuff to think about ?
Edited by 738 driver on Thursday 21st January 10:46
Just a little of my Knowledge, every FI engine that's been tuned on the dyno for MAX power ect more often than not will need tuning in the car for drivability at part throttle and low end use.
If I remember right the GTW was cruising at 70mph with a TPS reading of 2% and only 7% at 120mph. Those kind of lower end TPS and Fueling points really need to be done in the real world, and it's that tuning that makes the car drivable and better MPG. Speak to any Guy that MAPs engines for a living and he'll tell you even a Copy Map from a Supposedly Identical engine could probably improved on for each individual car....
Basically the Dyno can do the nutter stuff and top end but the part throttle and mostly bottom end is better done in the moving car. It's very hard to simulate the exact Fuel pump, Fuel temp, air temp engine cooling etc on a Dyno...
But I cant stress enough that you also need to get the right guy tunning it for you aswell, the wrong Map can rec an engine very quickly.....
If I remember right the GTW was cruising at 70mph with a TPS reading of 2% and only 7% at 120mph. Those kind of lower end TPS and Fueling points really need to be done in the real world, and it's that tuning that makes the car drivable and better MPG. Speak to any Guy that MAPs engines for a living and he'll tell you even a Copy Map from a Supposedly Identical engine could probably improved on for each individual car....
Basically the Dyno can do the nutter stuff and top end but the part throttle and mostly bottom end is better done in the moving car. It's very hard to simulate the exact Fuel pump, Fuel temp, air temp engine cooling etc on a Dyno...
But I cant stress enough that you also need to get the right guy tunning it for you aswell, the wrong Map can rec an engine very quickly.....
Willy, I do hope you get this sorted and it would be interesting to hear what you did.
From a simplistic veiw point, and what I have gathered, I assume the AS motor comes with ECU, engine loom and throttle pedal?
If this combination of parts worked on the dyno, then the only other parts that you dont have and would have been used, would be the exhausts and lambdas. So, again in my simple view of things, the only things different in your instal is the Ultima exhausts and lambdas. Do the lambdas come from Ultima?
Don't see how these two items would cause you the problems you are having, unless the lambda(s) is (are) faulty?
Is the fuel good? i.e. quality, pressure delivery etc?
Ian
From a simplistic veiw point, and what I have gathered, I assume the AS motor comes with ECU, engine loom and throttle pedal?
If this combination of parts worked on the dyno, then the only other parts that you dont have and would have been used, would be the exhausts and lambdas. So, again in my simple view of things, the only things different in your instal is the Ultima exhausts and lambdas. Do the lambdas come from Ultima?
Don't see how these two items would cause you the problems you are having, unless the lambda(s) is (are) faulty?
Is the fuel good? i.e. quality, pressure delivery etc?
Ian
You really are missing many points here Stringvest.
The engine dyno runs only serve to run up the motor and gain peak HP/Torque WOT readings.
I have seen many dyno runs that didnt involve tickover/idle setting adjustments at all.....its not relative to what the dyno is used for especially as things will change dramatically when fitted to a vehicle. Most dyno operators dont consider it part of their operation.....they cant replicate a cars running environment in a dyno cell and the dyno printouts are merely their main marketing tool.
Its basically just a sealed box, with a huge fan pulling air through it and a load device strapped to your motor. It doesnt duplicate any running conditions experienced in the car/chassis, just puts a load on an engine, and progressively unloads it to gain readings, thats it!
Dyno cooling systems, oil systems, fuel systems, fuel types, exhausts and once again working environments are completely different to the final vehicle installation. So, many things have changed considerably.
In Will's case, as soon as he can access his current running data he will have a great indication of whats wrong and be able to resolve it. For any builder thinking its plug n play and 100% correct, that cannot be the case after a basic engine dyno session. You just have a starting point, the ECU will self learn/compensate to some degree but if several parts of the recepie have changed spec, it will likely be some way off.
The only way to sort a new installation 100% is by hub dyno and road/track tweeking the end build.
After spending £25-30K on an engine/box ancilliary package wouldn't it be wise to know whats actually going on after fitting ?
The engine dyno runs only serve to run up the motor and gain peak HP/Torque WOT readings.
I have seen many dyno runs that didnt involve tickover/idle setting adjustments at all.....its not relative to what the dyno is used for especially as things will change dramatically when fitted to a vehicle. Most dyno operators dont consider it part of their operation.....they cant replicate a cars running environment in a dyno cell and the dyno printouts are merely their main marketing tool.
Its basically just a sealed box, with a huge fan pulling air through it and a load device strapped to your motor. It doesnt duplicate any running conditions experienced in the car/chassis, just puts a load on an engine, and progressively unloads it to gain readings, thats it!
Dyno cooling systems, oil systems, fuel systems, fuel types, exhausts and once again working environments are completely different to the final vehicle installation. So, many things have changed considerably.
In Will's case, as soon as he can access his current running data he will have a great indication of whats wrong and be able to resolve it. For any builder thinking its plug n play and 100% correct, that cannot be the case after a basic engine dyno session. You just have a starting point, the ECU will self learn/compensate to some degree but if several parts of the recepie have changed spec, it will likely be some way off.
The only way to sort a new installation 100% is by hub dyno and road/track tweeking the end build.
After spending £25-30K on an engine/box ancilliary package wouldn't it be wise to know whats actually going on after fitting ?
Edited by 738 driver on Friday 22 January 09:41
wb200 said:
I'm having a big problem with the original set-up of my LS-7 engine. The system runs way too rich. This results in poor idling and the motor choking off easily. Before I'm reinventing the wheel I'm wondering whether anybody on this forum has a good base tune for an LS-x powered Ultima GTR with factory stock exhaust system. I got myself the HP Tuner software. So a tuning file that works with this software would be great. This is going to be my first attempt at ECU programming. All tips & tricks are most welcome!
Cheers,
Willy
He is saying his engine is running way too rich and poor idling, this can easily be setup properly on the dyno and no matter what exhaust your installingCheers,
Willy
and would have not that impact. I think a proper dyno session is done with the exhaust that is installed later in your system which was the case in my setup.
And they also used a proper wide band lambda to dial in the ECU.
As mentioned before other Ultima builders had similar problems with their yank engines not running properly after installing them.
However putting lambdas and a proper ECU should make it quite easy for an expert to setup the engine correctly, how simple can it be when you have the AFR readings ?
Edited by spatz on Friday 22 January 06:36
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff