Discussion
Hope someone can help....
comment below is from my accountant.
5. I note that the Paypal Sales figures entered in the VAT Return summaries are tne "Net" amounts after deduction of Paypal fees. The output tax is therefore being understated, and the VAT office - if picked up on an inspection visit - would want this money, plus interest, plus penalties. It is no defence to point out that there is (presumably) vat on the paypal fees that you are not reclaiming, and that the two would cancel out. They would explain to you that you have a legal obligation to pay over the output tax that is due, - and whether you wish to claim a deduction for input tax incurred, is simply a matter of personal choice - if you do not claim it, you are not entitled to it. I suggest that you revise the way that you put your VAT summaries together.
I can't get my head round this as I use the nett amount received from paypal as that is what I receive, I don't and never had had a invoice from paypal for the fees they take.
I'm probably wrong but it seems to fly in the face of all logic that I have to paY VAT on monies that I have not had.
I'm not trying to avoid paying it if the accountant is right then I'll have to bite the bullet but doesnt seem fair
comment below is from my accountant.
5. I note that the Paypal Sales figures entered in the VAT Return summaries are tne "Net" amounts after deduction of Paypal fees. The output tax is therefore being understated, and the VAT office - if picked up on an inspection visit - would want this money, plus interest, plus penalties. It is no defence to point out that there is (presumably) vat on the paypal fees that you are not reclaiming, and that the two would cancel out. They would explain to you that you have a legal obligation to pay over the output tax that is due, - and whether you wish to claim a deduction for input tax incurred, is simply a matter of personal choice - if you do not claim it, you are not entitled to it. I suggest that you revise the way that you put your VAT summaries together.
I can't get my head round this as I use the nett amount received from paypal as that is what I receive, I don't and never had had a invoice from paypal for the fees they take.
I'm probably wrong but it seems to fly in the face of all logic that I have to paY VAT on monies that I have not had.
I'm not trying to avoid paying it if the accountant is right then I'll have to bite the bullet but doesnt seem fair
Agents often deduct their their fees and commissions from monies collected on someone else's behalf before they physically transfer the money to the end recipient. However, if the end recipient (i.e. you) is VAT registered, they should be accounting for the VAT on the FULL value of the money paid by their customers BEFORE any such charges are deducted by a handling agent - such as Paypal.
So, in effect, your accountant is correct.
If the agent is basec in Luxemburg, in all probablility they will not be charging UK VAT, so there is no VAT on their charges for you to reclaim.
So, in effect, your accountant is correct.
If the agent is basec in Luxemburg, in all probablility they will not be charging UK VAT, so there is no VAT on their charges for you to reclaim.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 18th January 17:37
But Paypal are a Bank not a handling agent! PayPal Europe SÃ rl & Cie, SCA
http://tamebay.com/2007/05/paypal-becomes-a-bank-n...
http://tamebay.com/2007/05/paypal-becomes-a-bank-n...
Edited by lightweight on Monday 18th January 17:44
Banks charge for the services they provide. Thjey also charge interest for advancing money to clients.
VAT is charged on some finance charges but not on others.
VAT is not normally charged on interest.
If you are a VAT registered business, you can recover any VAT chrged by a bank.
If the bank is based outside the EU, it wiill not normally charge VAT of any sort.
VAT is charged on some finance charges but not on others.
VAT is not normally charged on interest.
If you are a VAT registered business, you can recover any VAT chrged by a bank.
If the bank is based outside the EU, it wiill not normally charge VAT of any sort.
Eric Mc said:
Banks charge for the services they provide. Thjey also charge interest for advancing money to clients.
VAT is charged on some finance charges but not on others.
VAT is not normally charged on interest.
If you are a VAT registered business, you can recover any VAT chrged by a bank.
If the bank is based outside the EU, it wiill not normally charge VAT of any sort.
Thought so having read the link.VAT is charged on some finance charges but not on others.
VAT is not normally charged on interest.
If you are a VAT registered business, you can recover any VAT chrged by a bank.
If the bank is based outside the EU, it wiill not normally charge VAT of any sort.
I'll pay over 5 years of 4% paypal fees immediately then
Mr Overheads said:
I think you need to avoid the term "net" with your accountant. Net implies to them that you have deducted VAT from a Gross figure. But your explanation seems to indicate that you've entered the actual amount received but simply called it "net". This has led to confusion all around.
I'll add up all the 4% fees taken by paypal and treat them as a sale and deduct VAT from that amount and pay it on this 1/4 returnTBH I'd rather overpay the Revenue.
Bit fed up its taken 5 years for me to be told what I've been doing in good faith was wrong but thats life I suppose
OP sorry I've just re-read your Original post. Your accountant is right. Let me use an example.
Ignore paypal fees for an example, lets say you sell an item for £20 and it costs you £3 to post it, the profit is £17 but on a VAT return you should record the £20 as a sale (Output tax) and £3 as a cost (Input Tax)
Now apply that to the Sale of goods receiving monies via Paypal. What YOU are doing is putting the £17 as the Output value and £0 for the Input value. i.e. it is not your right to do the offset yourself. You need to seperate the value's on your VAT return.
Hope that is clearer.
Ignore paypal fees for an example, lets say you sell an item for £20 and it costs you £3 to post it, the profit is £17 but on a VAT return you should record the £20 as a sale (Output tax) and £3 as a cost (Input Tax)
Now apply that to the Sale of goods receiving monies via Paypal. What YOU are doing is putting the £17 as the Output value and £0 for the Input value. i.e. it is not your right to do the offset yourself. You need to seperate the value's on your VAT return.
Hope that is clearer.
Eric Mc said:
Agents often deduct their their fees and commissions from monies collected on someone else's behalf before they physically transfer the money to the end recipient. However, if the end recipient (i.e. you) is VAT registered, they should be accounting for the VAT on the FULL value of the money paid by their customers BEFORE any such charges are deducted by a handling agent - such as Paypal.
So, in effect, your accountant is correct.
If the agent is basec in Luxemburg, in all probablility they will not be charging UK VAT, so there is no VAT on their charges for you to reclaim.
I've seen instances where items left on SOR are sold without accounting for VAT on them if the original owner is not VAT registered, even though the seller may be. I've always suspected that wasn't correct but told my a number of people that it was! Good to know the true position.So, in effect, your accountant is correct.
If the agent is basec in Luxemburg, in all probablility they will not be charging UK VAT, so there is no VAT on their charges for you to reclaim.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 18th January 17:37
If an item is sold on Sale or Return and the business' income is agreed as being a "Commission" rather than the full sale value of the item, then VAT would only be charged on the Commission rather than the full sale value.
For this to be allowed for VAT purposes, it must be clear from the underlying paperwork that the item is being sold on a Commission basis and that the legal ownership never vested in the retailer. In other words, the retailer only acted as a selling agent and at no point ever took on legal possession of the goods.
VAT can be very complicated at times.
For this to be allowed for VAT purposes, it must be clear from the underlying paperwork that the item is being sold on a Commission basis and that the legal ownership never vested in the retailer. In other words, the retailer only acted as a selling agent and at no point ever took on legal possession of the goods.
VAT can be very complicated at times.
Eric Mc said:
If an item is sold on Sale or Return and the business' income is agreed as being a "Commission" rather than the full sale value of the item, then VAT would only be charged on the Commission rather than the full sale value.
For this to be allowed for VAT purposes, it must be clear from the underlying paperwork that the item is being sold on a Commission basis and that the legal ownership never vested in the retailer. In other words, the retailer only acted as a selling agent and at no point ever took on legal possession of the goods.
VAT can be very complicated at times.
interesting...........a lot of what I sell I never actually see as its drop shipped from wholesaler to customerFor this to be allowed for VAT purposes, it must be clear from the underlying paperwork that the item is being sold on a Commission basis and that the legal ownership never vested in the retailer. In other words, the retailer only acted as a selling agent and at no point ever took on legal possession of the goods.
VAT can be very complicated at times.
coyft said:
Prolex-UK said:
good idea as an expense..............
Only if you have a VAT invoice from them, otherwise bad idea.So does it sound like we are doing it correct Eric?! (if my memory is correct). I'm pretty sure we only do anything with merchant fees at year end, we certainly do not provide any details of these fee's for the VAT returns. If a sale goes via Pay Pal then all we do is invoice as normal & the accountant gets a copy, so the Pay Pal (or whatever) fee is not shown anywhere on the invoice, juts the sale price cost to customer with VAT.
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