How slow will the new teams be?!
Discussion
In follow up to my previous question. How much off the pace do we all think the new teams will be?
Or do you think that they will be competitive straight away and mixing it with the current backmarkers?!
I'll stick my neck out and say I reckon the quickest newcomer will be atleast a second a lap slower than the slowest current team.
Any thoughts?
Or do you think that they will be competitive straight away and mixing it with the current backmarkers?!
I'll stick my neck out and say I reckon the quickest newcomer will be atleast a second a lap slower than the slowest current team.
Any thoughts?
Edited by The Milfman on Wednesday 20th January 13:41
The question concerns the Cosworth engine. This has been designed under the guidance of Mosley.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
caz4213 said:
i reckon at least one of the new teams (hopefully lotus) could spring a surprise and arrive at the first race on the same pace if not quicker than the current back markers. As for the others; probably lapping half a second to a second slower than the current back markers.
Who are the current back markers?Toro Rosso?
It's hard to tell. It's not as clear as the Jordon-then-Jordan-then-Minardi-then-Minardi days.
With Force India rising through the ranks, are we classing BMW too as back-markers? Then again, Kubica's second place in Brazil disproves that theory.
So by backmarkers, I'm going to assume the two Toro Rossos and whoever is in the second Renault.
Then again, will Sauber be off the pace? Or, more likely, will De La Rosa be on it?
So the backmarkers are the Toro Rossos, the second Renault and De La Rosa?
I'm not sure why it makes much difference, but... who the slowest of the current teams is could be an equally valid question.
This is the biggest factor imo, I reckon the new teams could be quite a bit quicker in the straight line department.
Derek Smith said:
The question concerns the Cosworth engine. This has been designed under the guidance of Mosley.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
Last year was unique in that there really were no backmarkers. The whole field was so close and every team scored good points.
Even if the new teams do really, really well and are only 2 seconds off the pace of the frontrunners, by last years standards that would still put them a second off the nearest existing team.
Even if the new teams do really, really well and are only 2 seconds off the pace of the frontrunners, by last years standards that would still put them a second off the nearest existing team.
How slow will the new teams be?
Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
FourWheelDrift said:
How slow will the new teams be?
Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
The team, cars and equipment all turned up to Brazil for the second race but the cars never turned a wheel. The team got pissed and went back to Huntingdon to wait for their redundancies.Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
Project 644 said:
FourWheelDrift said:
How slow will the new teams be?
Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
The team, cars and equipment all turned up to Brazil for the second race but the cars never turned a wheel. The team got pissed and went back to Huntingdon to wait for their redundancies.Remember the Mastercard Lola-Ford of 1997? They were 11.6s & 12.7s off the pace at the first race and remember this was Lola, with a proven Ford engine. They didn't reappear after that. Unless they pull out after (the limited) pre-season testing I think 1 or 2 teams might find themselves way off the pace in Bahrain.
Derek Smith said:
The question concerns the Cosworth engine. This has been designed under the guidance of Mosley.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
i would have said that as head of the 'new' FIA, failing to defend mosely's improper procedures in court was the proper thing to do!The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
all the manufacturers have to play by the same rules with regards to engines (material and dimension specs etc) and ECU's, i can't see how cosworth will be allowed greater freedoms than anyone else. i don't have any concern whatsoever about a level playing field in that regard.
Derek Smith said:
The question concerns the Cosworth engine. This has been designed under the guidance of Mosley.
The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
Yes, this has been occupying my mind for some time. Cosworth has been allowed freedom to develop the engine- given the one last used would be very uncompetative- but there's very little in the way of info regarding just how much and what safegaurds there are against them taking an unfair advantage over the field. Given mosleys anti-manufacturer team stance toward the end you do have to wonder, especially as williams made a surprise switch to cosworth... williams being the first team to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat and sign the concord agreement...The current F1 engines are all 'artificially' limited in their power output. If Cosworth, Mosley's little darling, was allowed greater freedoms as to these limits then it could be the class of the field.
Unlikely I know as it would be a dirty trick and would be against fair play and such.
Such an eventuality might be the second big test of Todt's regime. He's failed the first, that of trying to defend in court Mosley's improper procedures when banning Briatore.
garycat said:
Is the 107% qualifying time rule still in force?
No it isn't anymore. My money goes on Lotus being the fastest of the new teams. Maybe into the low teensfor qualifying? With MG there they have recent experience making the decisions and I think this will count for a lot.
Cosworth's performance in testing will be interesting. You would guess reliability should be ok, they must have done many miles on the dyno by now. Use in anger has yet to be tested though.
hairyben said:
Yes, this has been occupying my mind for some time. Cosworth has been allowed freedom to develop the engine- given the one last used would be very uncompetative- but there's very little in the way of info regarding just how much and what safegaurds there are against them taking an unfair advantage over the field. Given mosleys anti-manufacturer team stance toward the end you do have to wonder, especially as williams made a surprise switch to cosworth... williams being the first team to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat and sign the concord agreement...
Williams were the weakest when it came to standing up against Mosley.I'm a big fan of FW and PH but I did wonder if they were worried about their contract to supply the cars for the one-make series, the one that few have heard of and even fewer seem bothered about. Such a plan would have been crude enough for Mosley. The fact that it failed to generate crowds didn't seem to put him off wanting something similar for F1.
But the good thing is that if indeed Mosley did use Cossie as an attempt to break the manufacturers then if it was his plan there would be some fatal flaw.
We could be back to the days of the Ferrari V12 that was so powerful that it could pass anything on the track. Apart from, of course, a corner. Of the Renault turbo which similarly could pass anything but the first mile post.
Teams sould learn their skill in a lower forumla and progress to F1 rather than come straight in. I've always though of having a formula run to similar regs to F1 but cheaper and easier to get into, perhaps with a straight 6. I was chatting about this idea with some mates and one suggested the name of Formula 2.
It'd never catch on though.
I've decided not to worry about Cosworth and any underhand dealings until the first race. There's no real way of knowing. However I've got the feeling that some teams will be nothing more than hazards to negotiate. A sort of more frequent pit stop.
I'm still feeling excited about this season.
Derek Smith said:
hairyben said:
Yes, this has been occupying my mind for some time. Cosworth has been allowed freedom to develop the engine- given the one last used would be very uncompetative- but there's very little in the way of info regarding just how much and what safegaurds there are against them taking an unfair advantage over the field. Given mosleys anti-manufacturer team stance toward the end you do have to wonder, especially as williams made a surprise switch to cosworth... williams being the first team to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat and sign the concord agreement...
Williams were the weakest when it came to standing up against Mosley.I'm a big fan of FW and PH but I did wonder if they were worried about their contract to supply the cars for the one-make series, the one that few have heard of and even fewer seem bothered about. Such a plan would have been crude enough for Mosley. The fact that it failed to generate crowds didn't seem to put him off wanting something similar for F1.
But the good thing is that if indeed Mosley did use Cossie as an attempt to break the manufacturers then if it was his plan there would be some fatal flaw.
We could be back to the days of the Ferrari V12 that was so powerful that it could pass anything on the track. Apart from, of course, a corner. Of the Renault turbo which similarly could pass anything but the first mile post.
Teams sould learn their skill in a lower forumla and progress to F1 rather than come straight in. I've always though of having a formula run to similar regs to F1 but cheaper and easier to get into, perhaps with a straight 6. I was chatting about this idea with some mates and one suggested the name of Formula 2.
It'd never catch on though.
I've decided not to worry about Cosworth and any underhand dealings until the first race. There's no real way of knowing. However I've got the feeling that some teams will be nothing more than hazards to negotiate. A sort of more frequent pit stop.
I'm still feeling excited about this season.
Personally I've never much cared for frank williams- not a popular stance I know- but he's always come across as having a selfish streak that surpasses just about anyone else. A sort of mini-ferrari "whats good for us and F the sport"- being the first to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat didn't suprise me at all.
hairyben said:
Intrestingly I'd had exactly the same idea myself- a 2nd division F1 using fundementally the same spec in a low-cost format, perhaps evan with relegation & promotion? Something could be worked out. Thats what was so "wrong" with the new teams selection IMO, that teams like lola and prodrive, with experience with F1 and beyond (motorsport and FIA events), were overlooked in favour of unknown never tried's. Whole thing stinks to me.
Personally I've never much cared for frank williams- not a popular stance I know- but he's always come across as having a selfish streak that surpasses just about anyone else. A sort of mini-ferrari "whats good for us and F the sport"- being the first to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat didn't suprise me at all.
There seemed no logic to Mosley's choice of entrants. I should have had a bet on it.Personally I've never much cared for frank williams- not a popular stance I know- but he's always come across as having a selfish streak that surpasses just about anyone else. A sort of mini-ferrari "whats good for us and F the sport"- being the first to break ranks in the FOTA/FIA spat didn't suprise me at all.
The thought that occurred to me was that FW and PH were considering seeling up and wanted to protect their investment. PH 'came back' to the pitlane last season - great to see him where he belongs - and that seemed to suggest an attempt to bling it all up for someone to buy.
It will be the last of the real old stagers when he goes - FW, PH, Ron and Briatore. And we're gradually losing the manufacturers.
Whilst I agree FW is selfish when it comes to his F1 team, to be fair that goes for every manager. I am a big fan of RD but even I have to admit he can, or rare occasions, drift towards a certain lack of generosity when it comes to his competitors. But thinking about your post, I've got to say that there was a lot more of the F1 fan in RD. He seemed to love just being there.
2010 does not so much seem a start of a new season but a new era in the sport. The last eight or so years, when Mosley seemed to lose all concerns about what was best for the sport, have been very worrying, the biggest threat to the sport I can remember since I became a fan in 1966. Balestre, for all his weird ways (he was a Prost fan, the sort of LibDems of F1), was always a keen motor racing fan first. Not an accusation one could level at Mosley I think.
Curry Burns said:
Well the head of Cosworth seemed very confident about his engines yesterday when he spoke at a conference I was at yesterday.
It was mildly humourous when he was asked with of the teams powered by Cosworth would do best, he answered Williams
Shows his confidence in the new teams
Oh shoot I'd forgotten Williams were Cosworth as well. It was mildly humourous when he was asked with of the teams powered by Cosworth would do best, he answered Williams
Shows his confidence in the new teams
If that engine is really good that could be very interesting...Don't forget that Torro Rosso have had to design their own car from scratch for the first time having previously used the Red Bull design, so they're in effect a new outfit too. Because of that I suspect at least one of the newcomers will be on a par with, if not ahead of STR come the start of the season.
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