Assured Shorthold Tenancy - Notice Periods
Discussion
One for the property experts..
We have a 12 month AST agreement from 09.03.09 - 08.03.10 our letting agent is stating that we have to give 2 months notice, before we can move out. (we assumed 1 month)
2 months notice is not explicitly stated in the contract but the agents are saying this is industry practice and a lawyer would agree.
They state that before the AST is up (i.e at any point before the completion of the 12th month) 2 months is required, after this period (ie the from the 1st day of the 13month forward) 1 months notice is required. This is no good to us, as 1 person is leaving and we can't afford the rent between 2 of us after 08.03.10.
The only mention of notice periods in our contract is the 6 month break clause (which states that 2 months notice must be give) however we will not be "breaking" the contract, we will be completing all 12 months!! The agent states I am incorrect and that when you sign a AST agreement it binds you to then "roll into" a normal tenancy agreement after the 12 months if you do not given notice (which I was not aware of)
Is the letting agent pulling a fast one or am I just naive to what an AST actually is/means.
Cheers
We have a 12 month AST agreement from 09.03.09 - 08.03.10 our letting agent is stating that we have to give 2 months notice, before we can move out. (we assumed 1 month)
2 months notice is not explicitly stated in the contract but the agents are saying this is industry practice and a lawyer would agree.
They state that before the AST is up (i.e at any point before the completion of the 12th month) 2 months is required, after this period (ie the from the 1st day of the 13month forward) 1 months notice is required. This is no good to us, as 1 person is leaving and we can't afford the rent between 2 of us after 08.03.10.
The only mention of notice periods in our contract is the 6 month break clause (which states that 2 months notice must be give) however we will not be "breaking" the contract, we will be completing all 12 months!! The agent states I am incorrect and that when you sign a AST agreement it binds you to then "roll into" a normal tenancy agreement after the 12 months if you do not given notice (which I was not aware of)
Is the letting agent pulling a fast one or am I just naive to what an AST actually is/means.
Cheers
What does your AST actually state? You need to dig your copy out and read it carefully.
I think your agent is right, I'm afraid. The AST our tenants sign certainly works the way you describe, and you might just have to bite the bullet. You'll have signed up as 'jointly and severally liable' I would imagine.
Sorry, but that's why tenants need to think hard before signing up for 12 months, especially in houseshares. We don't accept shared tenancies because of just the problems you're having.
eta A useful document:
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
I think your agent is right, I'm afraid. The AST our tenants sign certainly works the way you describe, and you might just have to bite the bullet. You'll have signed up as 'jointly and severally liable' I would imagine.
Sorry, but that's why tenants need to think hard before signing up for 12 months, especially in houseshares. We don't accept shared tenancies because of just the problems you're having.
eta A useful document:
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
Edited by N Dentressangle on Thursday 21st January 19:18
N Dentressangle said:
What does your AST actually state? You need to dig your copy out and read it carefully.
I think your agent is right, I'm afraid. The AST our tenants sign certainly works the way you describe, and you might just have to bite the bullet. You'll have signed up as 'jointly and severally liable' I would imagine.
Sorry, but that's why tenants need to think hard before signing up for 12 months, especially in houseshares. We don't accept shared tenancies because of just the problems you're having.
Ive read it page for page, the fact were a house share isnt an issue as we were going to move anyway.I think your agent is right, I'm afraid. The AST our tenants sign certainly works the way you describe, and you might just have to bite the bullet. You'll have signed up as 'jointly and severally liable' I would imagine.
Sorry, but that's why tenants need to think hard before signing up for 12 months, especially in houseshares. We don't accept shared tenancies because of just the problems you're having.
It does state "Jointly and severally liable' but thats not the problem, its the notice period!
the agent even agreed that the agreement we signed is ambigious as it does not state that we have to give 2 months notice, it only says we need to give 2 months notice to break the contract.
My question is RE the legal definition of breaking the contract, or not, if the case may be. Logic would say that for a 12 month fixed term contract if you stay there exactly 12 months (which we want to do, not a day longer) you are completing the contract not breaking it (therefore their clause about 2 months for breaking a contract is null and void). Surely this is right?
Jakestar said:
Is the letting agent pulling a fast one or am I just naive to what an AST actually is/means.
Cheers
Actually, having re-read your post I think the agent is wrong.Cheers
You can move out without penalty at the end of your AST period, so on 8 March. You need to give ONE month's notice of this intention. Not two. Have a look here:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/Legal/Residential/Te...
at the section entitled "Notice to Quit an AST by the Tenant". You should give written notice to quit on or before 8 February, and you'll be fine. It's your landlord who has to give YOU two moths notice if they want you out, so maybe that's where the agent is getting 'confused'. Hmmmm.
HTH!
N Dentressangle said:
Jakestar said:
Is the letting agent pulling a fast one or am I just naive to what an AST actually is/means.
Cheers
Actually, having re-read your post I think the agent is wrong.Cheers
You can move out without penalty at the end of your AST period, so on 8 March. You need to give ONE month's notice of this intention. Not two. Have a look here:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/Legal/Residential/Te...
at the section entitled "Notice to Quit an AST by the Tenant". You should give written notice to quit on or before 8 February, and you'll be fine. It's your landlord who has to give YOU two moths notice if they want you out, so maybe that's where the agent is getting 'confused'. Hmmmm.
HTH!
There were 3 agents in the office when I went in, they were all adament that landlord had to give us 2 months notice and we had to give them 2months!!
He even used the e.g. that using my logic the landlord could kick us out whenevr they want however on the front page of the agreement it states ".....landlord entittled to recover possession of the premises in accordancxe with blah blah by serving upon tenants at least 2 months notice in writing" so they cant use that example!!
So I guess we are entitled to give 1 month notice?!
Actually reading that, my question is not answered, it just states that you roll into a periodic tennancy (which is where you can give 1 month notice) it actually states that you cannot break a AST without agreed break clause.
My question still stands though; If we give 1 month notice on the 11 month of a 12 month AST are we "breaking" the AST?
Ive also found this link: http://www.assuredshortholdtenancy.com/ending-tena...
Which has a very interesting paragraph:
"A tenant has full rights to leave on the last day of the fixed term without giving any notice provided that the agreement is for a fixed term. They would become periodic tenants if they stay for even one day over the fixed term. Also they would have to submit a proper notice until and unless the landlord is comfortable with them leaving the property."
Could anyone confirm if this advice has been taken from legislation / ACOP / guidance? The above is exactly what logic would dictate, and if true, we shall be doing just that! (but I think I may need advice from a property lawyer first as I dont want to loose my £600 deposit).
My question still stands though; If we give 1 month notice on the 11 month of a 12 month AST are we "breaking" the AST?
Ive also found this link: http://www.assuredshortholdtenancy.com/ending-tena...
Which has a very interesting paragraph:
"A tenant has full rights to leave on the last day of the fixed term without giving any notice provided that the agreement is for a fixed term. They would become periodic tenants if they stay for even one day over the fixed term. Also they would have to submit a proper notice until and unless the landlord is comfortable with them leaving the property."
Could anyone confirm if this advice has been taken from legislation / ACOP / guidance? The above is exactly what logic would dictate, and if true, we shall be doing just that! (but I think I may need advice from a property lawyer first as I dont want to loose my £600 deposit).
Edited by Jakestar on Thursday 21st January 20:12
I have experience of AST's and I can assure you that you are at liberty to leave on the last day of the tenancy without notice.
If you have paid a deposit, then you may wish to give good notice to the landlord as a gesture of goodwill and arrange an inspection by the agent to secure the best possible return of your deposit.
If you have paid a deposit, then you may wish to give good notice to the landlord as a gesture of goodwill and arrange an inspection by the agent to secure the best possible return of your deposit.
London GT3 said:
I have experience of AST's and I can assure you that you are at liberty to leave on the last day of the tenancy without notice.
If you have paid a deposit, then you may wish to give good notice to the landlord as a gesture of goodwill and arrange an inspection by the agent to secure the best possible return of your deposit.
That's my understanding too. Unless I hear from a tenant otherwise, I'd assume they want to leave at the end of the AST.If you have paid a deposit, then you may wish to give good notice to the landlord as a gesture of goodwill and arrange an inspection by the agent to secure the best possible return of your deposit.
In any case, 2 months before the end of the AST I serve a Section 21 notice to quit on them, giving them 2 months notice of the end of their tenancy. This usually prompts contact from the tenant and an indication of intentions.
I'd write to the agent, recorded delivery, giving notice to quit at the end of the AST. Presumably your deposit is held by a 3rd party, so the agent can't just keep it?
Thanks for your replies, over the last hour have done some digging around, reading this thread makes it all clear (I added the last post as would be interested just to see if I'm right or they are right) http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.ph...
And going by what this chap on the LL forum states:
Originally Posted by Lawcruncher
Landlords can avoid the problem quite easily. All they have to do is to grant a tenancy on terms that once the fixed term has expired the tenancy continues on a periodic basis. When the fixed period ends the periodic tenancy arises as a matter of contract and is not contingent upon the tenancy remaining an AST.
Essential means there is a clause in our agreement that I didnt even understand that states:
"The Term" or "The Tennancy" includes any extension or continuation therof or any statutory periodic tenancy which may arise following the end of the period of the Term.
Coupled with;
"this agreement may be terminated by either party giving to the other at least 2 months notice in writing to expire at any time after six months from the commencement date of this agreement as specified in the clause "Term".
Means that we cannot leave on the last day of the AST without giving notice as it automatically becomes a periodic tennancy requing 1 months notice. Cheeky buggers!!!
And going by what this chap on the LL forum states:
Originally Posted by Lawcruncher
Landlords can avoid the problem quite easily. All they have to do is to grant a tenancy on terms that once the fixed term has expired the tenancy continues on a periodic basis. When the fixed period ends the periodic tenancy arises as a matter of contract and is not contingent upon the tenancy remaining an AST.
Essential means there is a clause in our agreement that I didnt even understand that states:
"The Term" or "The Tennancy" includes any extension or continuation therof or any statutory periodic tenancy which may arise following the end of the period of the Term.
Coupled with;
"this agreement may be terminated by either party giving to the other at least 2 months notice in writing to expire at any time after six months from the commencement date of this agreement as specified in the clause "Term".
Means that we cannot leave on the last day of the AST without giving notice as it automatically becomes a periodic tennancy requing 1 months notice. Cheeky buggers!!!
No Contract, Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement can change what is legislated in Law, in this case Section 5 of the Housing Act 1988. Where there is a fixed term Tenancy Agreement, here 12 months, then the tenant may vacate, terminate the tenancy by just giving a minimum of One months Notice, if that is the rent is paid monthly.
There are several cases in Law that will/may assist the OP.
There are several cases in Law that will/may assist the OP.
Wings said:
No Contract, Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement can change what is legislated in Law, in this case Section 5 of the Housing Act 1988. Where there is a fixed term Tenancy Agreement, here 12 months, then the tenant may vacate, terminate the tenancy by just giving a minimum of One months Notice, if that is the rent is paid monthly.
There are several cases in Law that will/may assist the OP.
Would you be able to point me in the direction of any of those cases so I can quote in a letter?There are several cases in Law that will/may assist the OP.
(if it really does get out of hand then I'll get a solicitor involved, but if they think I know what I'm on about they will hopefully play ball)
Page 20 to 21, you are not legally required to give Notice up to the end of a fixed term tenancy, but would be wised to give one where a Deposit has been paid, that Notice should a months Notice when paying rent monthly, and a week when paying rent weekly.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
I was reading yesterday a Judgement handed down in 2006 that covered the length of a Notice on a fixed term tenancy, if I find it I will post the link up. The ones below are not the Judgement I am looking for, but the case below was refered to in thatt Judgement.
http://www.letlink.co.uk/case-law/abandonment/lain...
http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/vie...
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
I was reading yesterday a Judgement handed down in 2006 that covered the length of a Notice on a fixed term tenancy, if I find it I will post the link up. The ones below are not the Judgement I am looking for, but the case below was refered to in thatt Judgement.
http://www.letlink.co.uk/case-law/abandonment/lain...
http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/vie...
Wings said:
Page 20 to 21, you are not legally required to give Notice up to the end of a fixed term tenancy, but would be wised to give one where a Deposit has been paid, that Notice should a months Notice when paying rent monthly, and a week when paying rent weekly.
http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
I was reading yesterday a Judgement handed down in 2006 that covered the length of a Notice on a fixed term tenancy, if I find it I will post the link up. The ones below are not the Judgement I am looking for, but the case below was refered to in thatt Judgement.
http://www.letlink.co.uk/case-law/abandonment/lain...
http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/vie...
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/pd...
I was reading yesterday a Judgement handed down in 2006 that covered the length of a Notice on a fixed term tenancy, if I find it I will post the link up. The ones below are not the Judgement I am looking for, but the case below was refered to in thatt Judgement.
http://www.letlink.co.uk/case-law/abandonment/lain...
http://www.practicalconveyancing.co.uk/content/vie...
Wings said:
Yay! I was wondering when you'd ride in and save the day.
I was 99% sure the tenant actually needed to do nothing - the 2 month's notice a sensible landlord gives should find out intentions anyway - but it's nice to have it confirmed.
It's a shame the agency are trying to pull a fast one. Hard to believe they're ignorant of the law in this case, somehow...
Wings said:
This is the link I found earlier, but one of the memebers posted (page 2) that if the conract states that the tennancy automatically transfers into a periodic one, then notice shall be required.. which is what is confusing me.. (our AST agreement has this clause as I previously posted..)Originally Posted by Lawcruncher
Landlords can avoid the problem quite easily. All they have to do is to grant a tenancy on terms that once the fixed term has expired the tenancy continues on a periodic basis. When the fixed period ends the periodic tenancy arises as a matter of contract and is not contingent upon the tenancy remaining an AST.
Edited by Jakestar on Thursday 21st January 22:57
I do not dispute that Notice is required, but the length of that Notice is either a Month if the rent is paid monthly, or if the rent is paid Weekly then a weeks Notice is required.
If the AST was taken out on 9th March 2009, for the same to end on 8 March 2010, then the same is a 12 months fixed term tenancy. So in practice, and under the Housing Act 1988 the minimum Notice required by the tenant to serve on the Landlord (if rent paid monthly) is One Month, the same being served/dated the 9 February 2010, the Notice ending the Tenancy on 8 March 2010. Also in practice you have already given the Landlord 12 months Notice back on the 9 March 2009 when you signed the 12 months FIXED term tenancy, this is why some would argue that NO Notice is required.
I repeat, the Housing Act 1988 clearly states that the Notice period for a tenant to a landlord is One Month if the rent is paid monthly, therefore NO agreement can lawfully rewrite legislation. If I were the OP I would put my Notice in writing today, the same confirming your verbal Notice of the xxxx, quoting the case law I posted earlier.
If the AST was taken out on 9th March 2009, for the same to end on 8 March 2010, then the same is a 12 months fixed term tenancy. So in practice, and under the Housing Act 1988 the minimum Notice required by the tenant to serve on the Landlord (if rent paid monthly) is One Month, the same being served/dated the 9 February 2010, the Notice ending the Tenancy on 8 March 2010. Also in practice you have already given the Landlord 12 months Notice back on the 9 March 2009 when you signed the 12 months FIXED term tenancy, this is why some would argue that NO Notice is required.
I repeat, the Housing Act 1988 clearly states that the Notice period for a tenant to a landlord is One Month if the rent is paid monthly, therefore NO agreement can lawfully rewrite legislation. If I were the OP I would put my Notice in writing today, the same confirming your verbal Notice of the xxxx, quoting the case law I posted earlier.
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