Thameslink taking friend to court...help please
Discussion
I have been called by a friend who is in a bit of a state because he has been summonsed to court by Thameslink. The charges against him are : "leaving St Albans station by means other than a ticket barrier without permission of an authorised person" (jumping a barrier) and "failing to hand over a valid rail ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person".
What happened was : He was travelling out of London at 9 o'clock on Thursday 16th October. He was slightly drunk as had met a friend in London after finishing a training course. He got tto the ticket barrier and put his ticket in (which was a weekly ticket bought that Monday). The machine beeped and spat it back at him. This was due to it being somewhat crumpled. He tried it in a second machine and same result. He couldnt see anyone around to ask so jumped over the barrier so he could leave. At this point a railway bloke stepped out of the bushes in the dark and collared him.
The conversation basically focussed on the fact that he DID have a ticket, but didnt have a valid photocadr on him, and hence he had no ticket...and therefore had made an illegal exit.
Facts :
In short whilst he has in fact broken some of the technical rules, he has paid Thameslink for the service and genuinely didnt know that he had to have a photocard. He hasnt tried to rip anyone off, and the protection manager even said "Yeah well we can prove if you've been sharing that ticket as we'ev got CCTV on these barries and ticket logs for the week" - which would show him going into the station each morning and leaving each evening...and that's all.
The problem with this is that the charge carries a criminal record - and obviously one of dishonesty. This is absolutely appalling in my view.
Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions etc.... anything appreciated
thanks
Night
p.s. he is also very worried about the costs as he has little money. Doesnt really want to get a solicitor if it can be avoided.....
What happened was : He was travelling out of London at 9 o'clock on Thursday 16th October. He was slightly drunk as had met a friend in London after finishing a training course. He got tto the ticket barrier and put his ticket in (which was a weekly ticket bought that Monday). The machine beeped and spat it back at him. This was due to it being somewhat crumpled. He tried it in a second machine and same result. He couldnt see anyone around to ask so jumped over the barrier so he could leave. At this point a railway bloke stepped out of the bushes in the dark and collared him.
The conversation basically focussed on the fact that he DID have a ticket, but didnt have a valid photocadr on him, and hence he had no ticket...and therefore had made an illegal exit.
Facts :
- He bought a weekly ticket as he was on a training course for work in London (paperwork to prove this)
- He bought the ticket from St Albans station, that Monday, without a photocard. In fact he didnt know whether you could buy a ticket from a machine, asked a guard who pressed all the buttons for it. At no point was he asked for or told he required one. He has the receipt to prove the purchase
- On Tuesday and Wednesday he showed the ticket to various London railguards to get through barriers during engineering works. Nothing was ever mentioned
- The St Albans guard who collared hims title is "revenue protection manager" - believe it or not!
In short whilst he has in fact broken some of the technical rules, he has paid Thameslink for the service and genuinely didnt know that he had to have a photocard. He hasnt tried to rip anyone off, and the protection manager even said "Yeah well we can prove if you've been sharing that ticket as we'ev got CCTV on these barries and ticket logs for the week" - which would show him going into the station each morning and leaving each evening...and that's all.
The problem with this is that the charge carries a criminal record - and obviously one of dishonesty. This is absolutely appalling in my view.
Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions etc.... anything appreciated
thanks
Night
p.s. he is also very worried about the costs as he has little money. Doesnt really want to get a solicitor if it can be avoided.....
Could maybe try CAB.
If a valid ticket requires ticket + photocard then it sounds like your mate is stuffed.
How does the barrier know whether the photocard is valid though? What would have happened if the ticket had not been crumpled? Would he have just been allowed through? It may be possible to argue that the photocard isn't a essential part of the transaction.
If a valid ticket requires ticket + photocard then it sounds like your mate is stuffed.
How does the barrier know whether the photocard is valid though? What would have happened if the ticket had not been crumpled? Would he have just been allowed through? It may be possible to argue that the photocard isn't a essential part of the transaction.
Maybe he should counter-claim that Thameslink were holding him against his own free will?
He must play on the fact that he used the ticket twice through the manned barrier without intervention.
I also use a weekly ticket (different network) - you can buy them from the machine, which AFAIK doesn't make any statements about the photocard. The photocard is not needed to get through the barriers, but should be displayed with the ticket if inspected.
Frankly, your friend is silly for stopping - if the revenue manager had tried to stop him that would have been close to assault. I also carry a real address that I have never lived at in my head, incase some jumped up little hitler ever does this to me!
He must play on the fact that he used the ticket twice through the manned barrier without intervention.
I also use a weekly ticket (different network) - you can buy them from the machine, which AFAIK doesn't make any statements about the photocard. The photocard is not needed to get through the barriers, but should be displayed with the ticket if inspected.
Frankly, your friend is silly for stopping - if the revenue manager had tried to stop him that would have been close to assault. I also carry a real address that I have never lived at in my head, incase some jumped up little hitler ever does this to me!
I should think it'll get to court, he'll show the ticket he had, produce receipts to show that it was him that bought it (I hope he used a card, rather than cash!), explain himself, and be let off.
His 'crime' seems to be to be travelling with a ticket, without any proof that it's his ticket. If he can somehow show that the ticket does belong to him (e.g. a receipt with his card number on it), he's only travelled without knowing the rules - hardly a crime.
If it's that important that you have a photo card, I'd have thought Thameslink should prevent you from buying one at a machine to ensure that you're not breaking the rules.
It's probably worth his while trying to get hold of Thameslink before it goes to court and tell them all of this - provide photocopies if needed. They may well decide that it's not worth taking him to court.
All IMHO, and IANAL.
Dan
His 'crime' seems to be to be travelling with a ticket, without any proof that it's his ticket. If he can somehow show that the ticket does belong to him (e.g. a receipt with his card number on it), he's only travelled without knowing the rules - hardly a crime.
If it's that important that you have a photo card, I'd have thought Thameslink should prevent you from buying one at a machine to ensure that you're not breaking the rules.
It's probably worth his while trying to get hold of Thameslink before it goes to court and tell them all of this - provide photocopies if needed. They may well decide that it's not worth taking him to court.
All IMHO, and IANAL.
Dan
Humm, sounds dodgy to me.
How can he at any point prove that the ticket is his except by having it in his posession? I don't think there is any link between a "photocard" and the purchased ticket.
Was the ticket a reduced price because of this card?
The ticket was purchased on his behalf by a Thameslink employee who was well aware that he was not a frequent traveller (if they have CCTV I'm sure they can find this).
He was unable to leave the station as there was no exit without a barrier and no member of staff visible to ask (false or illegal imprisonment maybe?).
Just some thoughts of how I would approach it.
It would probably be worth consulting the CAB or a solicitor. Try and find one that does a free 1/2 hour initial consultation.
How can he at any point prove that the ticket is his except by having it in his posession? I don't think there is any link between a "photocard" and the purchased ticket.
Was the ticket a reduced price because of this card?
The ticket was purchased on his behalf by a Thameslink employee who was well aware that he was not a frequent traveller (if they have CCTV I'm sure they can find this).
He was unable to leave the station as there was no exit without a barrier and no member of staff visible to ask (false or illegal imprisonment maybe?).
Just some thoughts of how I would approach it.
It would probably be worth consulting the CAB or a solicitor. Try and find one that does a free 1/2 hour initial consultation.
I'd suggest a counter writ against them would scare them off enough.
Write to their legal dept. to suggest that if they go ahead with a prosecution, you will sue them for one of their staff illegally selling you a ticket for which you are not entitled to. And then accepting that ticket on 2 occasions without rejecting it.
Write to their legal dept. to suggest that if they go ahead with a prosecution, you will sue them for one of their staff illegally selling you a ticket for which you are not entitled to. And then accepting that ticket on 2 occasions without rejecting it.
Absolutely typical of the stupid level of beurocracy(sp) TOCs employ.
Reminds few of a few years back - I lived in Fulham at the time, and was doing a show in Windsor. The journey was tube to Paddington, train to Slough, where I changed for the shuttle to Windsor.
This one night, there was a huge snarl up at Earls Court, and my tube was delayed by about 30 minutes. I got to Paddington about a minute before my train was due to depart, so I jumped on thinking I would buy a ticket from an inspector. It was the last train that I could have got to get to the show on time.
Anyway, all the way to Slough, no inspector.
When I got to Slough, I just had to cross to another platform to get the shuttle. However, I decided to do the honest thing, find the ticket office, and get a ticket from there. When I got there and explained the sitution he told me I had to pay a penalty fare (not a fine apparently!). I explained patiently again, and said that I was trying to buy a ticket *now*. He was having none of it, saying I should have bought my ticket before I boarded the train, and I was forced to pay it (basically most of my fee for that night).
Of course I got to Windsor and nobody checked my ticket, so I could have blagged it.
I wrote to both LUL and Thames Trains. The latter never replied, while LUL sent me a voucher for the single journey (about 1.30!! *lol*).
The annoying thing was that, the next night, people were buying tickets on the train - so quite clearly you could buy a ticket after you boarded...
So, as a result of being honest I lost out. As a result, I will now blag it. There's no point in trying to be honest, because it carries to same penalty as trying it on! Frequently my local train station has no staff on duty and machines out of order - *shrug* I just get on the train!
Hope the TOC get seriously embarrassed by your mate. Sounds to me like he could win (IANAL) but he does need to get legal advice first. TOCs can be total w*nkers and may try to stick on the "it's not valid without a photocard" line - reckon your best line of attack is :
1) was never told
2) staff sold it to you without photocard (from memory it should have a serial number copied onto it from the photocard
3) it was accepted through the barriers by staff members twice.
Let us know how your mate gets on
Wonder where you would stand trying to get past some officious staff member who tried to detain you...?
Reminds few of a few years back - I lived in Fulham at the time, and was doing a show in Windsor. The journey was tube to Paddington, train to Slough, where I changed for the shuttle to Windsor.
This one night, there was a huge snarl up at Earls Court, and my tube was delayed by about 30 minutes. I got to Paddington about a minute before my train was due to depart, so I jumped on thinking I would buy a ticket from an inspector. It was the last train that I could have got to get to the show on time.
Anyway, all the way to Slough, no inspector.
When I got to Slough, I just had to cross to another platform to get the shuttle. However, I decided to do the honest thing, find the ticket office, and get a ticket from there. When I got there and explained the sitution he told me I had to pay a penalty fare (not a fine apparently!). I explained patiently again, and said that I was trying to buy a ticket *now*. He was having none of it, saying I should have bought my ticket before I boarded the train, and I was forced to pay it (basically most of my fee for that night).
Of course I got to Windsor and nobody checked my ticket, so I could have blagged it.
I wrote to both LUL and Thames Trains. The latter never replied, while LUL sent me a voucher for the single journey (about 1.30!! *lol*).
The annoying thing was that, the next night, people were buying tickets on the train - so quite clearly you could buy a ticket after you boarded...
So, as a result of being honest I lost out. As a result, I will now blag it. There's no point in trying to be honest, because it carries to same penalty as trying it on! Frequently my local train station has no staff on duty and machines out of order - *shrug* I just get on the train!
Hope the TOC get seriously embarrassed by your mate. Sounds to me like he could win (IANAL) but he does need to get legal advice first. TOCs can be total w*nkers and may try to stick on the "it's not valid without a photocard" line - reckon your best line of attack is :
1) was never told
2) staff sold it to you without photocard (from memory it should have a serial number copied onto it from the photocard
3) it was accepted through the barriers by staff members twice.
Let us know how your mate gets on
Wonder where you would stand trying to get past some officious staff member who tried to detain you...?
icamm said:Ah - well, you'd be wrong on that score, I'm afraid. My photocard has a number on it, and this number is written onto my ticket when I buy it. Mine's a monthly season ticket, but I beleive the same principle is applied to weekly ones. This is for Thameslink (I live in Harpenden, one stop up from your friend), but IIRC it's the same for other train co's too.
I don't think there is any link between a "photocard" and the purchased ticket.
There was a time when they stopped selling weekly travel cards from the machinesin Wimbledon, and for just this reason. If it's that important to have a photo card with the thing, could it be argued that Thameslink had a duty of care to make sure that your friend had one before buying it? After all, he's basically being prosecuted for not having one, and he wasn't told he needed one. Might be worth going through the process of buying a weekly ticket from the machine (up to the point of payment), to see if the machine mentions the need for a photo card at any point.
Dan
A-ha no... in South Wales we can buy weekly tickets on a bus which cover bus and train fare and there's no requirement for a photocard. When I used to commute on a monthly ticket, I was lead to believe you only needed a photocard for monthly seasons or longer.
Edited to say in fact the weekly bus/train ticket is a strip of normal bus ticket - looks nothing like a train ticket!
>> Edited by wanty1974 on Friday 6th February 09:34
Edited to say in fact the weekly bus/train ticket is a strip of normal bus ticket - looks nothing like a train ticket!
>> Edited by wanty1974 on Friday 6th February 09:34
Something similar happened to me. Got to the station. Machine OOS. No staff.
So, board the train and go *looking* for an inspector. Find him in his little room smoking a fag.
Explain that I'd like a ticket for a couple of stops (2 quid). He gives me a 20 quide fine for no ticket.
So I got my address wrong and had no id on me. Cretin.
So, board the train and go *looking* for an inspector. Find him in his little room smoking a fag.
Explain that I'd like a ticket for a couple of stops (2 quid). He gives me a 20 quide fine for no ticket.
So I got my address wrong and had no id on me. Cretin.
DanL said:Sorry, I meant in this case. IE the person who sold him the ticket did not write a photocard number on the ticket so it could NEVER be proved to which photocard the ticket was linked.
I don't think there is any link between a "photocard" and the purchased ticket.
Ah - well, you'd be wrong on that score, I'm afraid. My photocard has a number on it, and this number is written onto my ticket when I buy it. Mine's a monthly season ticket, but I beleive the same principle is applied to weekly ones. This is for Thameslink (I live in Harpenden, one stop up from your friend), but IIRC it's the same for other train co's too.
There was a time when they stopped selling weekly travel cards from the machinesin Wimbledon, and for just this reason. If it's that important to have a photo card with the thing, could it be argued that Thameslink had a duty of care to make sure that your friend had one before buying it? After all, he's basically being prosecuted for not having one, and he wasn't told he needed one. Might be worth going through the process of buying a weekly ticket from the machine (up to the point of payment), to see if the machine mentions the need for a photo card at any point.
Dan
icamm said:Ah - righty ho. Yeah, you'd be right there!
Sorry, I meant in this case. IE the person who sold him the ticket did not write a photocard number on the ticket so it could NEVER be proved to which photocard the ticket was linked.
icamm said:Sounds very sensible. On Thameslink, however, you seem to need a photocard for anything that's not a daily ticket. Bloody daft idea if you ask me, but there it is... May well have something to do with going through London, as IIRC, when I lived there I had to get a photocard even for a weekly underground ticket.
in South Wales we can buy weekly tickets on a bus which cover bus and train fare and there's no requirement for a photocard. When I used to commute on a monthly ticket, I was lead to believe you only needed a photocard for monthly seasons or longer.
Dan
I have a weekly ticket for a Silverlink (Missinglink would be more appropriate) route - need a photocard to buy/renew the ticket, and the photocard ID number gets written on the ticket, but never been asked for the card by any inspector.
I was under the impression you couldn't buy weekly tickets from the machines? Would seem a bit odd if you could, given the ID card requirement. Still, these are train operators we're talking about, logic isn't something they deal in.
I was under the impression you couldn't buy weekly tickets from the machines? Would seem a bit odd if you could, given the ID card requirement. Still, these are train operators we're talking about, logic isn't something they deal in.
I think it does tell you on the machines that you need to have a valid photocard for weekly tickets (if they're the blue Ascom ones).
But, as your mate asked the uniformed staff what he needed to buy and they pressed the machine buttons for him then I think it's correct that they therefore have a duty of care and it can be argued that your mate took reasonable steps to ensure he had a correct and valid ticket. The fact that he used it to get through a manned ticket barrier twice is further evidence of this.
However, I suspect the biggest problem will be proving this. If it can be shown (CCTV) that he made reasonable efforts to find a member of staff to get past the barriers and only jumped them when one was not clearly present then I can't see that the penalty is valid. The station has a duty to provide uniformed staff to man the barriers if they are not open.
But, as your mate asked the uniformed staff what he needed to buy and they pressed the machine buttons for him then I think it's correct that they therefore have a duty of care and it can be argued that your mate took reasonable steps to ensure he had a correct and valid ticket. The fact that he used it to get through a manned ticket barrier twice is further evidence of this.
However, I suspect the biggest problem will be proving this. If it can be shown (CCTV) that he made reasonable efforts to find a member of staff to get past the barriers and only jumped them when one was not clearly present then I can't see that the penalty is valid. The station has a duty to provide uniformed staff to man the barriers if they are not open.
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