Can these speed limits really be right!?
Discussion
Something on a journey I do regularly has been bugging me over the last few weeks, and now it's really started to annoy me.
The bit of road in question is the A12 in London - the section between the Green Man Interchange and the Redbridge Roundabout. Anybody who knows this section of road will know that it is a 40 limit, although 50 is pretty safe and usually the average speed of the traffic. The rest of the A12 towards the Blackwall Tunnel is a 50 limit (apart from one 40 area around a sharp corner).
The road in question is a 2 lane dual carriageway with a concrete wall at each side and concrete central reservation, and a no-pedestrian route, motorway style.
As you drive towards town from the Redbridge roundabout and go under one of the underpasses (the one around Wanstead tube), the limit drops to 30 for about 200 yards. The road curves slightly to the left, but other than that there are no hazards whatsoever.
Today I made sure I was doing bang on 30, and I have never been so scared in my life - cars, HGVs and even buses flying past me at 50 or so. I had one HGV 2 or 3 feet off my bumper straining to pull into the outside lane. I cannot see any good reason for this dropping of the speed limit - surely it is of *no* benefit to road safety, maybe even the opposite?
Even worse is going NE bound, on the other side of the carriageway, with conflicting speed limit signs! In a layby on the left there is a 30 sign (difficult to see) and 30 feet or so after on the central reservation there is a 40 sign! Not long afterwards, another 30, and then at the end of the underpass it's back to 40 - all in the space of 200 yards or so!
I would hazard a guess that a BiB who saw me sticking to the limits there would pull me for driving erratically!
So has anybody seen these limits? What do you think? Anybody who drives this route, try really sticking to those 30s and see what it's like!
And lastly - who should I write to to query it? I try desperately to be the best driver that I can (currently an IAM associate) but things like this totally frustrate me..... Why should we bother with speed limits where some of them are clearly so badly thought out (or even not thought of at all!). I would have been better off ignoring it and driving at a speed that I consider safe for the conditions
Anyway, I would be interested to hear anybody's opinions - thanks for listening!
[url]www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=540750&y=188250&z=1&sv=540750,188250&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf[/url]
The bit of road in question is the A12 in London - the section between the Green Man Interchange and the Redbridge Roundabout. Anybody who knows this section of road will know that it is a 40 limit, although 50 is pretty safe and usually the average speed of the traffic. The rest of the A12 towards the Blackwall Tunnel is a 50 limit (apart from one 40 area around a sharp corner).
The road in question is a 2 lane dual carriageway with a concrete wall at each side and concrete central reservation, and a no-pedestrian route, motorway style.
As you drive towards town from the Redbridge roundabout and go under one of the underpasses (the one around Wanstead tube), the limit drops to 30 for about 200 yards. The road curves slightly to the left, but other than that there are no hazards whatsoever.
Today I made sure I was doing bang on 30, and I have never been so scared in my life - cars, HGVs and even buses flying past me at 50 or so. I had one HGV 2 or 3 feet off my bumper straining to pull into the outside lane. I cannot see any good reason for this dropping of the speed limit - surely it is of *no* benefit to road safety, maybe even the opposite?
Even worse is going NE bound, on the other side of the carriageway, with conflicting speed limit signs! In a layby on the left there is a 30 sign (difficult to see) and 30 feet or so after on the central reservation there is a 40 sign! Not long afterwards, another 30, and then at the end of the underpass it's back to 40 - all in the space of 200 yards or so!
I would hazard a guess that a BiB who saw me sticking to the limits there would pull me for driving erratically!
So has anybody seen these limits? What do you think? Anybody who drives this route, try really sticking to those 30s and see what it's like!
And lastly - who should I write to to query it? I try desperately to be the best driver that I can (currently an IAM associate) but things like this totally frustrate me..... Why should we bother with speed limits where some of them are clearly so badly thought out (or even not thought of at all!). I would have been better off ignoring it and driving at a speed that I consider safe for the conditions
Anyway, I would be interested to hear anybody's opinions - thanks for listening!
[url]www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=540750&y=188250&z=1&sv=540750,188250&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf[/url]
nicecupoftea said:
....... the limit drops to 30 for about 200 yards.
This doesn't seem right, could be just the signs that are wrong. I still think you did the right thing, ignoring silly limits isn't the answer.
You should write or phone the Highways Authority. Hopefully someone will tell you where they are for that area. Try to talk to the person who deals with this sort of thing, they are quite human! They may even have a Road Safety Forum you could join, I'm on one and it's useful to get involved and see the thinking behind some of these aparently daft ideas.
Heh - and all at the bottom of hills too!
leosayer> have a look next time you do the journey, I promise you there is at least one 30 sign as you go under the underpass - it's after the Wanstead turnoff.
I wish I had a video camera, would love to take footage of me following the limits and send it to the Powers That Be!
leosayer> have a look next time you do the journey, I promise you there is at least one 30 sign as you go under the underpass - it's after the Wanstead turnoff.
I wish I had a video camera, would love to take footage of me following the limits and send it to the Powers That Be!
andrew54 said:
....... the limit drops to 30 for about 200 yards.
I still think you did the right thing, ignoring silly limits isn't the answer.
.
I am very sorry but I have to disagree completely. Ignoring silly limits is absolutely the answer. Followed by. - If prosecuted block the system with as much paper as possible until the system becomes unworkable and the sillines becomes focussed on some other issue. Rules are only any use, if the consensus is behind them. Once that is gone, rules are fair game to be broken and the defenders fair game for humiliation.
I know that road well and also the signs you are referring to. I am absolutely sure that the signs in question are wrong. I think at one point there is a 30mph sign on the left and a 40mph sign in the central reservation. I think, but can't be sure, that it looks as if the signs might be hinged so they can be flipped over to a different limit if necessary, and someone hasn't ensured that they all read the same.
What I'm looking forward to are the 12 weeks of road works starting on March 12th. Oh joy!
What I'm looking forward to are the 12 weeks of road works starting on March 12th. Oh joy!
oyster said:
As far as I remember this road was built with the speed cameras on it.
Surely that is an illegal camera then? How on earth can there be 3 years worth of KSIs if the road is brand new????
Like Andrew54 said, I'd ring up and ask about this road.
Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing the response will be "We're allowed 20% to be placed in places where we think they will have a positive effect where there is no accident history to back it up".
The guidelines only apply to 80% (IIRC) of scamera sites.
LexSport said:
Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing the response will be "We're allowed 20% to be placed in places where we think they will have a positive effect where there is no accident history to back it up".
The guidelines only apply to 80% (IIRC) of scamera sites.
The rules state that up to 15% of cameras may be installed at "complaint" sites. Such sites do not have to meet the normal accident requirements.
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
andrew54 said:
I still think you did the right thing, ignoring silly limits isn't the answer.
This sort of thinking really scares me. It isn't many steps away from painting the widscreen black and trusting the speedo to keep you safe.
andrew54 said:
... They may even have a Road Safety Forum you could join, I'm on one and it's useful to get involved and see the thinking behind some of these aparently daft ideas.
Are you? That's interesting. What sort of forum are you on? Local authority?
andrew54 said:
....... the limit drops to 30 for about 200 yards.
...They may even have a Road Safety Forum you could join, I'm on one and it's useful to get involved and see the thinking behind some of these aparently daft ideas.
I'd be very interested to hear your feedback from these forums - mainly the justification for such "apparently" stupid ideas. Please tell!
safespeed said:
I still think you did the right thing, ignoring silly limits isn't the answer.
This sort of thinking really scares me. It isn't many steps away from painting the widscreen black and trusting the speedo to keep you safe.
I think you missunderstand me Paul. If the limit was really innapropriate I would obey it, but I would also do plenty to get it changed. In the same way that I would try to change anything which I thought was wrong. Simply ignoring things that are wrong means they are not highlighted as being wrong and don't get put right. You do yourself no favours when you say daft things like painting the screen black.
safespeed said:
... They may even have a Road Safety Forum you could join, I'm on one and it's useful to get involved and see the thinking behind some of these aparently daft ideas.
Are you? That's interesting. What sort of forum are you on? Local authority?
Yes. First went on it about 12 years ago. Been off it for about 5 years, then last year they asked me to be on it again.
james_j said:
I'd be very interested to hear your feedback from these forums - mainly the justification for such "apparently" stupid ideas. Please tell!
Ask me any questions you like. As for limits that seem wrong, well we don't seem to have many around here. There is one 30 limit that you might think stretches too far out of town, the reason is the high number of fatals on that stretch over the years, but most people don't know about those. Maybe they weren't caused by speed, maybe it won't help to stretch the 30 for another couple of hundred yards, but surely it's worth a try?
One thing that does come out of the forum experience is that the traffic engineers can't always do just what they want. As well as cost considerations they have to stay within lots of guidelines. I think without this we would get very different things happening in areas of different Authorities, which could confuse the driver.
andrew54 said:
I still think you did the right thing, ignoring silly limits isn't the answer.
This sort of thinking really scares me. It isn't many steps away from painting the widscreen black and trusting the speedo to keep you safe.
I think you missunderstand me Paul. If the limit was really innapropriate I would obey it, but I would also do plenty to get it changed. In the same way that I would try to change anything which I thought was wrong. Simply ignoring things that are wrong means they are not highlighted as being wrong and don't get put right. You do yourself no favours when you say daft things like painting the screen black.
You haven't realised that when you're checking the speedo the windscreen might as well be black. Every single second that a driver isn't paying full attention to the road is a clear risk.
Try thinking of driver attention to the road ahead as something that can vary from 0 to 100%. 0% is the same as painting the windscreen black. 100% is ideal but impractical.
Road safety depends on getting as much driver attention on the road ahead as we possibly can. Even miniscule reductions in average attention spread across a populations of 30 million drivers WILL result in accidents.
Inattention is a massive road safety issue:
www.safespeed.org.uk/inattention.html
Best Regards
Paul Smith
Safe Speed
www.safespeed.org.uk
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