HIPS - the most pointless exercise ever

[Dr_Rick]

So I've made an offer 'Subject to Survey' because I don't trust the Home Report in principal, but I've now had a specialist (damp/infestation) report back following the recommendations of a Scheme 2 survey which identified some areas of damp and an area of localise woodworm.

Now the Scheme 2 wasn't cheap but I don't want to take any chances with a 140yr old property but the works that we identified vs what was picked up in the sellers Home Report are painfull:

£6,400 inc VAT for remedials



How do they miss things like damp and woodworm in accessible areas? I'm going to make my solicitor work for his dinner on this one.

Dr Rick

[royceybaby]

Having had a HIP done last year on a property I sold and seeing one done on my fiancée's flat as well. A HIP is next to worthless and just an inconvenience to the seller.

I would not trust the energy report as far as I could throw it and the whole HIP at my fiancée's flat took 5mins!

All of the things they do are either done by your solicitor or a survey. Duplication a great government pastime.

Edited by royceybaby on Tuesday 26th January 12:10

[Dr_Rick]

Which is why when I sell my property, I'll be getting the cheapest HIPS that I can do and still provide the bare minimum of information for the prospective purchasers. If they don't like it, tough.

Hell, if someone comes to look at a period property they'll be fully aware, and not need some oik telling them, that the single glazed sash and case windows are not the most thermally efficient items, and that there isn't a damp proof course. I had someone tell me that the house needed re-wiring because the sockets were on the skirting boards and didn't meet current regs. The skirting boards are 40cm high and the cables (modern) run in the original screw fit iron conduits embedded in the wall. They can bite me if they think I'm ripping out stuff that works because a bit of paper says otherwise, or even if a purchaser trys to use this as leverage. I maintain my property in a safe manner, there is no need for this rubbish.

Now, anyone know a cheap PIPS provider for Scotland. The cheapest I have so far is just shy of £500 (4-bed semi estimated sale price £600k).

Dr Rick

[SwanJack]

A HIP is basically an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC), and searches that would be needed during the course of conveyancing in any event. They do not cover anything else, I really don't get your belief that a HIP is some sort of mini sructural survey on a property. It isn't. The introduction of HIPS is the Governement's way to comply with European Law which stemmed from the Kyoto agreement i.e a way of getting people to improve the energy effiecieny of houses (which is what the EPC hihlights, nothing else), in the hope that that carbon emissions are reduced.

[Plotloss]

Possibly.

Part L1A runs it mighty close though.

[SwanJack]

Plotloss said:

Possibly.

Part L1A runs it mighty close though.

Thats for new builds is it not?

[Plotloss]

SwanJack said:

Plotloss said:

Possibly.

Part L1A runs it mighty close though.

Thats for new builds is it not?

And renovations.

Either way, its fking pointless.

[davidjpowell]

Wait for a few years when the government has a database of how energy efficient a lot of houses are in the UK. Anyone else see the tax coming - perhaps we can have CO2 banded Council Tax?

[JQ]

My understanding was that ultimately they were introduced to cost the vendor money in an attempt to stop people putting their houses on the market to "test the market". They'd get a bit of interest then pull it off the market costing purchasers money (legals and surveys). This used to happen alot.

However, a far simpler and fairer solution would have just been to adopt the Scottish system where offers are legally binding, once accepted. This would stop gazumping, gazundering and all the other things that occur in England. Instead all vendors have to pay for a piece of paper that is useless in the greater scheme of things.

Another opportunity missed to sort things out by our current Gov.

[TubbyRutter]

davidjpowell said:

Wait for a few years when the government has a database of how energy efficient a lot of houses are in the UK. Anyone else see the tax coming - perhaps we can have CO2 banded Council Tax?

Good, just had my EPC done the other day with a nice scoring of 86 which puts it in at a B, allowing me to plow more money into car tax, putting me into balance with the environment.

Whats that you want a big V8? well thats fine just stick a solar panel on the roof of your gaff...

[SwanJack]

A better situation would have been that an EPC was required at some stage when selling your house, i.e the Solicitor would commission one at the same time as getting all the searches togethor after a sale had been agreed.

[SwanJack]

davidjpowell said:

Wait for a few years when the government has a database of how energy efficient a lot of houses are in the UK. Anyone else see the tax coming - perhaps we can have CO2 banded Council Tax?

The trouble is that changes to a house following an EPC can alter its energy saving/co2 emmission properties. A loft conversion for example, reduces the 'score'. A database of EPC scores for such a purpose would be pointless as houses that look the same from the outside, might have vastly different co2 emmissions.

[Dr_Rick]

davidjpowell said:

Wait for a few years when the government has a database of how energy efficient a lot of houses are in the UK. Anyone else see the tax coming - perhaps we can have CO2 banded Council Tax?

There's talk up here of a means-tested Council Tax system. IIRC it's been through the Scottish Government and is waiting in the wings. Apparently those that earn more deserve to pay their binmen more.

Dr Rick

[Dr_Rick]

SwanJack said:

A HIP is basically an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC), and searches that would be needed during the course of conveyancing in any event. They do not cover anything else, I really don't get your belief that a HIP is some sort of mini sructural survey on a property. It isn't. The introduction of HIPS is the Governement's way to comply with European Law which stemmed from the Kyoto agreement i.e a way of getting people to improve the energy effiecieny of houses (which is what the EPC hihlights, nothing else), in the hope that that carbon emissions are reduced.

To the best of my knowledge, the marketing exercise for HIPS was to remove the clutter of potential purchasers all having their separate surveys done on the one property, plus introducing a bit of moral superiority by including a nod to Kyoto. This makes sense in terms of pressure on the seller from numerous surveyors tramping through their house, and it allows consistency from the buyers perspectives as everyone has the same information.

The HIP I've received contains a Home Report (now having not dealt with HIPS before, bear with me), which I have seen as an optional extra on some quotation webpages. The Home Report details elements such as materials and defects which would make me lean towards it being a 'mini structural survey on a property'. I don't expect it to be a direct replacement for a Scheme 2 Survey, but given that that is the minimum in the old system that would get detail beyond a Valuation (Scheme 1) I can only assume that there should be a significant amount of common ground. With that in mind, how does a survey that picks up detail along the lines of 'Replace consumer unit and socket faces', not pick up on the fact that a rusty 20yr old boiler might also need replacing especially given the EPC.

Anecdotal evidence from colleagues that have sold is that the 'surveyors' for HIPS/PIPS are limited in their formal qualifications or even capabilities. One guy was selling a top floor flat complete with access hatch to the roof space (unlocked) and his Home Report stated that insulation levels were less than 100mm. That was remarkably astute of him as he didn't open the hatch and therefore didn't see the 300mm of new insulation that was installed. Any wonder I'm cynical about the purpose or value of a HIPS/PIPS.

EPC I see as complete tripe anyway, but moving on.

Dr Rick

[SwanJack]

Dr_Rick said:

SwanJack said:

A HIP is basically an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC), and searches that would be needed during the course of conveyancing in any event. They do not cover anything else, I really don't get your belief that a HIP is some sort of mini sructural survey on a property. It isn't. The introduction of HIPS is the Governement's way to comply with European Law which stemmed from the Kyoto agreement i.e a way of getting people to improve the energy effiecieny of houses (which is what the EPC hihlights, nothing else), in the hope that that carbon emissions are reduced.

To the best of my knowledge, the marketing exercise for HIPS was to remove the clutter of potential purchasers all having their separate surveys done on the one property, plus introducing a bit of moral superiority by including a nod to Kyoto. This makes sense in terms of pressure on the seller from numerous surveyors tramping through their house, and it allows consistency from the buyers perspectives as everyone has the same information.

The HIP I've received contains a Home Report (now having not dealt with HIPS before, bear with me), which I have seen as an optional extra on some quotation webpages. The Home Report details elements such as materials and defects which would make me lean towards it being a 'mini structural survey on a property'. I don't expect it to be a direct replacement for a Scheme 2 Survey, but given that that is the minimum in the old system that would get detail beyond a Valuation (Scheme 1) I can only assume that there should be a significant amount of common ground. With that in mind, how does a survey that picks up detail along the lines of 'Replace consumer unit and socket faces', not pick up on the fact that a rusty 20yr old boiler might also need replacing especially given the EPC.

Anecdotal evidence from colleagues that have sold is that the 'surveyors' for HIPS/PIPS are limited in their formal qualifications or even capabilities. One guy was selling a top floor flat complete with access hatch to the roof space (unlocked) and his Home Report stated that insulation levels were less than 100mm. That was remarkably astute of him as he didn't open the hatch and therefore didn't see the 300mm of new insulation that was installed. Any wonder I'm cynical about the purpose or value of a HIPS/PIPS.

EPC I see as complete tripe anyway, but moving on.

Dr Rick

When HIPS were first considered, the intention was that they were to include a Home Survey/Report for the reasons you mention. Essentially a very limited structural assessment of the property, the survey to be carried out by individuals who had been on a course which trained them to complete the home survey (the course was about £8,000 of someones redundancy pay). The said person would also have been able to produce an EPC at the same time. Just before HIPS came in, the necessity to have a Home Survey was removed, the EPC necessity remained however. The EPC was there to comply with Kyoto and to give those who had shelled out £8,000 something to do.
I am not sure about Scotland, but in England and Wales you don't need a home survey to be included in the HIP pack. You have bought something that you didn't need (strange for a Scotsman )

Edited by SwanJack on Tuesday 26th January 16:54

[FourWheelDrift]

HIPS are so useless they even recommend solar panels to listed buildings. They are pathetic, useless wastes of money. They waste more energy producing them, for example the inspector driving to the premises and the paperwork involved than they ever could save by agreeing to any of the recommendations under any Kyoto agreement.

I don't know anyone who has or would act on any of the HIPS findings.

[anonymous-user]

I am currently doing a dissertation on HIP's looking at the value of them and if they are working for the consumer. I am also looking into the opinions of property/construction professionals.

I may be asking some questions on here at some point as it seems some people on here have firsthand experience!

[SwanJack]

FourWheelDrift said:

HIPS are so useless they even recommend solar panels to listed buildings. They are pathetic, useless wastes of money. They waste more energy producing them, for example the inspector driving to the premises and the paperwork involved than they ever could save by agreeing to any of the recommendations under any Kyoto agreement.

I don't know anyone who has or would act on any of the HIPS findings.

They are only as good as the person doing the EPC. In the example you give, the EPC 'inspector' should overide the recommendations spouted out by the software producung the EPC.
As for the second argument you could counter by saying that the inpector would still have used/wasted energy by doing something else in the course of emplyment.
I recently looked at a property which had a very poor energy assement. The recommendations given would have boosted the score considerably, to the extent that it would have been foolish not to act on the findings.

[andye30m3]

The guy who did my hip didn't have a clue,

Made some fairly pointless assumptions which were completely incorrect about a house which was built in 1890, and had various extensions since then, desperately trying to get it to fit one of the limited options for wall, floor and roof types.

I have know Idea how he expected to make a remotely accurate assessment with know way of determining the construction.

I suspect they'll be used to asses how much green tax we need to pay at some point though.

[SwanJack]

andye30m3 said:

The guy who did my hip didn't have a clue,

Made some fairly pointless assumptions which were completely incorrect about a house which was built in 1890, and had various extensions since then, desperately trying to get it to fit one of the limited options for wall, floor and roof types.

I have know Idea how he expected to make a remotely accurate assessment with know way of determining the construction.

I suspect they'll be used to asses how much green tax we need to pay at some point though.

If he didn't know the construction of your house, then he wouldn't have been able to produce the EPC. The full EPC report would have shown all his deductions, if they were incorrect, did you complain?