"They're all the same"
Discussion
Is this currently the most lazy, ill thought out phrase in relation to the main parties?
Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
All three support AGW and the UK becoming a trivial (Compared to Germany and France at least) part of the United Socialist Soviet European Republic which in turn wants to hand power to a World Governance as per the Copenhagen Agreement.
To my mind this is not trivial, whether one part spends x amount on social care and another party wants to spend x+5% is trivial.
To my mind this is not trivial, whether one part spends x amount on social care and another party wants to spend x+5% is trivial.
Pesty said:
Don't worry I will note be voting to perpetuate the two party system. I have lived with long governments of both parties. They may sound like they have differences but the outcome is usually the same
I'd say the opposite. They sound like they're the same, but the outcome is completely different.Alex said:
Pesty said:
Don't worry I will note be voting to perpetuate the two party system. I have lived with long governments of both parties. They may sound like they have differences but the outcome is usually the same
I'd say the opposite. They sound like they're the same, but the outcome is completely different.Surely, to even the most ignorant, there is clear evidence by now that this is what they'll do?
Alex said:
Pesty said:
Don't worry I will note be voting to perpetuate the two party system. I have lived with long governments of both parties. They may sound like they have differences but the outcome is usually the same
I'd say the opposite. They sound like they're the same, but the outcome is completely different.what will they do different do you think? we wont even get a reforendum on europe that we were promised.
tax,imigration, crime, education, health. Nothing will change same old same old.
ps for those of you using lables like ignorant, it does your argument no good.
It won't be all gumdrop smiles and rainbows when they get in. even if they did want to change somethings they wouldnt be able to.
"They're all the same"
There is a fair degree of confusion with past and present here. It isn't as simple as good old left and right. That obfuscation has been going on for decades, I'd say it really came to a head when Blair realised that socialism wasn't working and instead blended communitarianism with his "third way" stuff. Brown has taken a bit of a step backwards, but again you could say that this was a reaction to the economic climate, rather than an ideological change.
As far as the tories are concerned, the good old "classical liberalism" is well and truly dead. They are by no means libertarian and in this respect (big government-lots of control) are similar to New Labour. They do not plan to reduce their own remit/deregulate. The Tories appear (by what Dave says and what's on their manifesto) to talk a lot of talk, but it's down to micro-tuning the status quo, rather than a huge ideological shift.
The liberal democrats are in my opinion better labelled as Socialists. Democrat is a meaningless word for pontification over and assuming they were to be democratic (in election) they would need to change their policies to ones which are democratic (not at odds with the majority of the population). It's pointless talking about the liberals, because they are pointless.
When I say "the same" I'm talking about coarse economic policy. Tax and Spend, although we hear CMD shouting about how he's going to rape the public sector in half, you also hear how he plans to increase spending here and there. I'm also talking about the extent of the government. Both parties are committed to having as much control/extent as possible. They both are also committed to the Europe, the politics of the majority being in the third way/christian democrat/communitarian "modern" vein. It might suggest that a party which was ideologically too different from these would be at odds with "the masters".
What I personally want is a government which is relevant to me and taxes which are appropriate to services which are needed and nothing more. In the EU, and both New Labour and CMDervatives (are not ideologically about) but actually practise/or are heading towards/or have not stood up and said "we'll change this" are about government which is too big, costs too much, wastes money, interferes where it shouldn't and are all at odds with the wishes of the majority of the UK public.
All parties have a similar order of totalitarian inferference.
All of them are committed to the welfare state.
All of them (bar UKIP, but they are all old nutters and not a party) are committed to the EU.
All of them want too much of my money.
All of them are doing it wrong and are too pig headed to listen.
They are committed to an economic plan that doesn't work, a eutopian project that costs too much and they seek, via the continued application of law to remove freedom.
That's my view of why "they're all the same". If you can convince me otherwise, I will be happy to change my mind.
There is a fair degree of confusion with past and present here. It isn't as simple as good old left and right. That obfuscation has been going on for decades, I'd say it really came to a head when Blair realised that socialism wasn't working and instead blended communitarianism with his "third way" stuff. Brown has taken a bit of a step backwards, but again you could say that this was a reaction to the economic climate, rather than an ideological change.
As far as the tories are concerned, the good old "classical liberalism" is well and truly dead. They are by no means libertarian and in this respect (big government-lots of control) are similar to New Labour. They do not plan to reduce their own remit/deregulate. The Tories appear (by what Dave says and what's on their manifesto) to talk a lot of talk, but it's down to micro-tuning the status quo, rather than a huge ideological shift.
The liberal democrats are in my opinion better labelled as Socialists. Democrat is a meaningless word for pontification over and assuming they were to be democratic (in election) they would need to change their policies to ones which are democratic (not at odds with the majority of the population). It's pointless talking about the liberals, because they are pointless.
When I say "the same" I'm talking about coarse economic policy. Tax and Spend, although we hear CMD shouting about how he's going to rape the public sector in half, you also hear how he plans to increase spending here and there. I'm also talking about the extent of the government. Both parties are committed to having as much control/extent as possible. They both are also committed to the Europe, the politics of the majority being in the third way/christian democrat/communitarian "modern" vein. It might suggest that a party which was ideologically too different from these would be at odds with "the masters".
What I personally want is a government which is relevant to me and taxes which are appropriate to services which are needed and nothing more. In the EU, and both New Labour and CMDervatives (are not ideologically about) but actually practise/or are heading towards/or have not stood up and said "we'll change this" are about government which is too big, costs too much, wastes money, interferes where it shouldn't and are all at odds with the wishes of the majority of the UK public.
All parties have a similar order of totalitarian inferference.
All of them are committed to the welfare state.
All of them (bar UKIP, but they are all old nutters and not a party) are committed to the EU.
All of them want too much of my money.
All of them are doing it wrong and are too pig headed to listen.
They are committed to an economic plan that doesn't work, a eutopian project that costs too much and they seek, via the continued application of law to remove freedom.
That's my view of why "they're all the same". If you can convince me otherwise, I will be happy to change my mind.
Pesty said:
what will they do different do you think? we wont even get a reforendum on europe that we were promised.
That was only if the treaty had not yet been ratified. Once that had happened there was no legal mandate to allow the results of a referendum to alter our position.What's the point of a referendum if the result won't lead to any change?
10 Pence Short said:
Is this currently the most lazy, ill thought out phrase in relation to the main parties?
Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
I agree with you, albeit with a view that centrist politics/policies has become a more important battleground for the parties than before.Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
Don said:
10 Pence Short said:
Is this currently the most lazy, ill thought out phrase in relation to the main parties?
Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
I agree with you, albeit with a view that centrist politics/policies has become a more important battleground for the parties than before.Whilst there may be similarities in a small number policies, there are huge differences in ideologies and the approaches to moving the UK forward. To simply lump them together as being 'all the same' seems incredibly ignorant, historically innacurate and downright pointless.
I sincerely hope those that keep spouting this nonsence are not hypocritical enough to vote for one or other of them.
10 Pence Short said:
Pesty said:
what will they do different do you think? we wont even get a reforendum on europe that we were promised.
That was only if the treaty had not yet been ratified. Once that had happened there was no legal mandate to allow the results of a referendum to alter our position.What's the point of a referendum if the result won't lead to any change?
so what 'difference' will we get when they come in over this?
None.
They knew Gordon would sign they made noises saying if he didn't we would get one. It was all rubbish and spin to capture a populist vote on Europe.They now say well we would have done but......
no change
Edited by Pesty on Sunday 31st January 11:46
Pesty said:
Thanks,yes its all coming back to me.
however can you tell me what difference over this the blues will make?
the answer is still none is it not? how are the tories different over europe?
It's hardly a significant issue at the moment.however can you tell me what difference over this the blues will make?
the answer is still none is it not? how are the tories different over europe?
What about the differences in profligate sepnding on 'services' with no discernible improvement. Do you really think the Tories will continue to do that? They never did before.
I believe the Tories will also have a less precious view towards immigration and crime in comparison with this lot, another area more important than Europe at the moment.
And finally, I think there are less in the Tory SC at the moment who are purely there to 'make their mark in history' than seen with the current government, as evidenced by GB's constant thrashing around on the world stage, wasting our, scarce, resources in search of personal fame, just like his predecessor.
Another war, anyone?
Pesty said:
10 Pence Short said:
In what respect?
You are the one saying it is lasy to say they are all the same.I would like to know what tangible difference I would see over the EU influence on us if the blues got in. What is this huge difference you refer to?
How will the Conservatives be different to Labour? You'll need to read the manifestos when they're released and make your mind up.
Also note that in my opening post I made the point that there will be instances where policies will be similar- that's one of the features of democracy.
10 Pence Short said:
Pesty said:
10 Pence Short said:
In what respect?
You are the one saying it is lasy to say they are all the same.I would like to know what tangible difference I would see over the EU influence on us if the blues got in. What is this huge difference you refer to?
How will the Conservatives be different to Labour? You'll need to read the manifestos when they're released and make your mind up.
Also note that in my opening post I made the point that there will be instances where policies will be similar- that's one of the features of democracy.
Personally I will not be reading any manifestos.
DSM2 said:
I believe the Tories will also have a less precious view towards immigration and crime in comparison with this lot, another area more important than Europe at the moment.
London was known as Londonistan when Thatcher was in place.Thinking of a recnt piss boiler
Do you really think the guy who killed two doctors and will not be sent back to Iraq because of his human rights would be sent back under a tory government? He would not.
It's quite hard to make a proper distinction at the moment.
Both parties will essentially need to take the same action in order to get our country out of the wopping great big hole that Labour has left us in.
Taxes will need to go up....the money needs to come from somewhere. We just need to realise that who ever is in power....will be doing the same thing.
Persoanlly, I'm becoming disillusioned that the Tories are the alternativ. Some of thee stuff I'm hearing from them makes we think that if they were in power, then the same mistakes would have happened.
I'll probably be voting for one of the other parties as a statement. Probably UKIP. I must admit, I do agreee with a lot of their policies....though whether they would actually impleement them or not is a different matter. I find with all parties you get one thing pre-election and then once in power they all start to sing a different tune.
Both parties will essentially need to take the same action in order to get our country out of the wopping great big hole that Labour has left us in.
Taxes will need to go up....the money needs to come from somewhere. We just need to realise that who ever is in power....will be doing the same thing.
Persoanlly, I'm becoming disillusioned that the Tories are the alternativ. Some of thee stuff I'm hearing from them makes we think that if they were in power, then the same mistakes would have happened.
I'll probably be voting for one of the other parties as a statement. Probably UKIP. I must admit, I do agreee with a lot of their policies....though whether they would actually impleement them or not is a different matter. I find with all parties you get one thing pre-election and then once in power they all start to sing a different tune.
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