Commercial Property - Again.
Discussion
I've been trading in (mostly) classiccars part time for a while now. I'll be going full time in August and as part of my planning for this my thoughts have turned to premises. Now, I know that its an awful lot cheaper and simpler to trade from home but my problem is that I have nowhere to store cars near there.
I don't need a showroom or pitch as such, as I mostly sell via the internet. I just need somewhere to put the stock, around 1000 sq ft (more if possible and affordable) and ideally an office to do the paperwork. The problem is that I am on the western edge of London, where commercial property prices are a bit on the high side. I'd like to buy somewhere outright, but I really don't have the money for that here, or anywhere else in the South East.
My thoughts are:
Rent an area of hard standing and put a portakabin on it. Unfortunately all of the available sites like this seem to be massive. The smallest - and hence cheapest - I can find around here is over 4000 sq ft and £15000 per annum. Ideal for my purposes but expensive. That would wipe out all of the capital I've allocated to my transition.
Rent some space from a local farmer. Should be cheap, but the only one I've spoken to wamts £20 per car per week. With, say, 6 cars that £6240 a year. A lot cheaper than the first option but expensive for what you get and getting quite close to my third option. Also I think I'll have the feeling that the space won't be 'mine'.
Rent a small unit on a trading estate. Will be secure and normally has an intergral office. Prices from £6500 to £15000 per annum. This seems the most attractive at the moment, but I'm sure it can't be as simple as that.
I've looked at railway arches and the like but they are surprisingly expensive for what you get, especially when compared to trading estate units.
Has anyone got any ideas for premises that I might have missed? What do you guys do for space? Any advice will be gratefully received.
I don't need a showroom or pitch as such, as I mostly sell via the internet. I just need somewhere to put the stock, around 1000 sq ft (more if possible and affordable) and ideally an office to do the paperwork. The problem is that I am on the western edge of London, where commercial property prices are a bit on the high side. I'd like to buy somewhere outright, but I really don't have the money for that here, or anywhere else in the South East.
My thoughts are:
Rent an area of hard standing and put a portakabin on it. Unfortunately all of the available sites like this seem to be massive. The smallest - and hence cheapest - I can find around here is over 4000 sq ft and £15000 per annum. Ideal for my purposes but expensive. That would wipe out all of the capital I've allocated to my transition.
Rent some space from a local farmer. Should be cheap, but the only one I've spoken to wamts £20 per car per week. With, say, 6 cars that £6240 a year. A lot cheaper than the first option but expensive for what you get and getting quite close to my third option. Also I think I'll have the feeling that the space won't be 'mine'.
Rent a small unit on a trading estate. Will be secure and normally has an intergral office. Prices from £6500 to £15000 per annum. This seems the most attractive at the moment, but I'm sure it can't be as simple as that.
I've looked at railway arches and the like but they are surprisingly expensive for what you get, especially when compared to trading estate units.
Has anyone got any ideas for premises that I might have missed? What do you guys do for space? Any advice will be gratefully received.
When I traded from home I was in the same boat. One day I collected a car from a trader in Blackpool who had a building big enough for 50 cars that cost £100 p/w!! Down in the SE this is a big problem. A farm or flat bit of land is ok but doesn't really look very good or protect the cars. Ideally you'd want somewhere like an industrial unit as you mentioned. You just need to work out the costs..
How much do you rely on passing trade and how much of it is by appointment?
As a start up I would go with the farmer option, then you can decide on a unit on an industrial estate once yoi've got some trading under your belt.
For the industrial unit you will pay rent as you say, but this is only say half of your outgoings. There's rates, service charge, repairs. You will also be tied in for a lease of say 3 years and may have to pay a deposit/ guarantee for a start up business.
As a start up I would go with the farmer option, then you can decide on a unit on an industrial estate once yoi've got some trading under your belt.
For the industrial unit you will pay rent as you say, but this is only say half of your outgoings. There's rates, service charge, repairs. You will also be tied in for a lease of say 3 years and may have to pay a deposit/ guarantee for a start up business.
soxboy said:
How much do you rely on passing trade and how much of it is by appointment?
As a start up I would go with the farmer option, then you can decide on a unit on an industrial estate once yoi've got some trading under your belt.
For the industrial unit you will pay rent as you say, but this is only say half of your outgoings. There's rates, service charge, repairs. You will also be tied in for a lease of say 3 years and may have to pay a deposit/ guarantee for a start up business.
You would need planning authority to sell cars from a farming site.As a start up I would go with the farmer option, then you can decide on a unit on an industrial estate once yoi've got some trading under your belt.
For the industrial unit you will pay rent as you say, but this is only say half of your outgoings. There's rates, service charge, repairs. You will also be tied in for a lease of say 3 years and may have to pay a deposit/ guarantee for a start up business.
But would it if were people arriving by appointment only?
That planning use would apply to pretty much every property where cars hadn't been sold before, as under the Town & Country Planning Act premises have their own classification for 'the Selling and Displaying of Motor Vehicles'.
That planning use would apply to pretty much every property where cars hadn't been sold before, as under the Town & Country Planning Act premises have their own classification for 'the Selling and Displaying of Motor Vehicles'.
Even if the customers only come by appointment I'd suggest he is still selling and displaying motor cars, although in reality the only time it is likely to be questioned is if someone complains to or informs the planning authority.
By the way even on a farm there would be a commitement to business rates once the VO found the property and assessed it. Any assessment can be backdated as well.
If you look on Google earth you'll find all sorts of fields with cars parked on them. Some of those fieldss are unregiistered cars belong to manufacturers, others are cars belonging to dealers, and others are off-airport parking.
An altternative may be to speak to the big car park operators NCP, Euro Car Parks etc to see if they have any underuntilised car parks where you could store your cars for less than currently proposed.
By the way even on a farm there would be a commitement to business rates once the VO found the property and assessed it. Any assessment can be backdated as well.
If you look on Google earth you'll find all sorts of fields with cars parked on them. Some of those fieldss are unregiistered cars belong to manufacturers, others are cars belonging to dealers, and others are off-airport parking.
An altternative may be to speak to the big car park operators NCP, Euro Car Parks etc to see if they have any underuntilised car parks where you could store your cars for less than currently proposed.
keep them covered, and secure. At the very least, every day you'll need to clean and wash them if kept outside
But old electrics dont like to be kept outside
Ditto old bodywork
If it was me, I'd head North or west. You can get a resonable small industrial unit just off the M1, M40 or M4 which will be easy to get to for (comparatively) very little money. If I was buying from someone like that, I'd also like:
-good lighting throughout. I'd be suspicious of cars presented in bad lighting
- a good 4 poster lift. Not for working on, but so the prospectvie buyer can have a look underneath the car in a safe environment. Its shows you have confidence in your product, and allows the buyer to think they know what they are looking for. Even if they dont...!
-keep battery packs close by. Because you never know with old cars...
-work out a suitable test route. Over time, you'll know the bad traffic areas. Avoid. Pretty views always help a driver feel good, so try and include these.
-Remember that the customer doesnt always know everything, but most customers would be a bit of research, so think they do. If I had a classic car company (after a lottery win, so I didnt need to make any profit) I would have a half decent library in the comfy waiting room. Its good to read things, and any buying guides can be shown to help the customer "...would Sir like to see the buying guide/driving guide/history for this particular model, from "classic banger" magazine Jan 2003??..." Again, shows confidence in your stock (this also shows, that Sir doesnt know everything if he is convinced that that early E-type should have an American V8, and one with some strange 6 cylinder engine is really only worth £500...). An e-bay search should get you a huge selection of magazines for comparatively little money. A weekend and a filing cabinet and you're ready to go!
-make the customer feel very welcome. A well known Porsche specialist on here knew I was attending, knew I was close when I phoned for directions, yet compleately ignored both me and my cash when I arrived, and the car was locked. So I walked.
Hope this helps. Good luck (and in response to your original question, dont keep them outside- get an industrial unit, which will be secure too. If you can, buy freehold and put into a pension fund. I say if, as everyone has been doing this for years and small freehold units are now few and far between.
But old electrics dont like to be kept outside
Ditto old bodywork
If it was me, I'd head North or west. You can get a resonable small industrial unit just off the M1, M40 or M4 which will be easy to get to for (comparatively) very little money. If I was buying from someone like that, I'd also like:
-good lighting throughout. I'd be suspicious of cars presented in bad lighting
- a good 4 poster lift. Not for working on, but so the prospectvie buyer can have a look underneath the car in a safe environment. Its shows you have confidence in your product, and allows the buyer to think they know what they are looking for. Even if they dont...!
-keep battery packs close by. Because you never know with old cars...
-work out a suitable test route. Over time, you'll know the bad traffic areas. Avoid. Pretty views always help a driver feel good, so try and include these.
-Remember that the customer doesnt always know everything, but most customers would be a bit of research, so think they do. If I had a classic car company (after a lottery win, so I didnt need to make any profit) I would have a half decent library in the comfy waiting room. Its good to read things, and any buying guides can be shown to help the customer "...would Sir like to see the buying guide/driving guide/history for this particular model, from "classic banger" magazine Jan 2003??..." Again, shows confidence in your stock (this also shows, that Sir doesnt know everything if he is convinced that that early E-type should have an American V8, and one with some strange 6 cylinder engine is really only worth £500...). An e-bay search should get you a huge selection of magazines for comparatively little money. A weekend and a filing cabinet and you're ready to go!
-make the customer feel very welcome. A well known Porsche specialist on here knew I was attending, knew I was close when I phoned for directions, yet compleately ignored both me and my cash when I arrived, and the car was locked. So I walked.
Hope this helps. Good luck (and in response to your original question, dont keep them outside- get an industrial unit, which will be secure too. If you can, buy freehold and put into a pension fund. I say if, as everyone has been doing this for years and small freehold units are now few and far between.
Thanks again. All good points to consider.
This is my first foray into commercial property, as you can probably tell. Interesting to hear about asking for a better price. Are landlords or agents generally amenable to a spot of negotiation? How does one start? "I'm not paying that - what about this" ?
Buying freehold would be the perfect solution, but I'll have nowhere near enough money for that and I don't want another mortgage if I can help it.
This is my first foray into commercial property, as you can probably tell. Interesting to hear about asking for a better price. Are landlords or agents generally amenable to a spot of negotiation? How does one start? "I'm not paying that - what about this" ?
Buying freehold would be the perfect solution, but I'll have nowhere near enough money for that and I don't want another mortgage if I can help it.
It may well be worth talking to some local commercial property agents, not the local estate agents. If you are looking for some space for a fairly limited amount of time, whilst you get established, they may know owners of industrial space that could usefully be made available.
Landlords will often prefer to have someone using a property under a licence rather than have it sit empty. You may also find a tenant that has excess space that they are paying rent for who would be happy to share in some way.
Landlords will often prefer to have someone using a property under a licence rather than have it sit empty. You may also find a tenant that has excess space that they are paying rent for who would be happy to share in some way.
if its just by appointment, then renting a farm building would be your best option.
my uncle is a car dealer in north london and rents a barn/industrial building off a farmer. has enought room for 20 cars and is secure (have to go through an electric gate to get to it). has no problems. not sure on price though.
my uncle is a car dealer in north london and rents a barn/industrial building off a farmer. has enought room for 20 cars and is secure (have to go through an electric gate to get to it). has no problems. not sure on price though.
Could you not get a unit in a much cheaper part of the UK? I'm sure there's some big places going for dirt cheap in less desirable places.
Then you could spend the money saved on a top notch website with detailed pictures and descriptions of all the cars you offer.
You said you don't rely on passing trade so to me this seems like the perfect solution.
Then you could spend the money saved on a top notch website with detailed pictures and descriptions of all the cars you offer.
You said you don't rely on passing trade so to me this seems like the perfect solution.
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