Biodiesel - EN14214 standard - Is it safe?
Discussion
We've been approached by a biodiesel producer, who made a very compelling case for switching over our fleet to a medium grade of biodiesel - most likely B40 or B60.
If we bunker the fuel on site, we can save between 15 and 20% on our fuel costs.
The biodiesel company say that their fuel is safe to use in our cars (predictably)
as it complies to EN14214. A lot of our vehicles are out of manufacturers warranty, but I decided to see if Skodas technical department had a view on biodiesel.
Man from Skoda say NO!!
Now, despite the fact that my cars may no longer need Skoda behind the warranty, quite clearly if the manufacturer will not support this type of fuel, then surely that is because of financial risk - the same risk I could open myself up to if I use the fuel and an engine blows up.
Still being keen to take advantage of the saving on fuel prices, I've continued with my research, and it would seem that manufacturer reluctance usually boils down to modern diesels having a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).
My understanding of a DPF is that it collects nasty hydrocarbons, but needs cleaning out. The way the modern engines do this is by injecting extra fuel into the cylinders after ignition, so that it vaporises and cleans the particulate filter on it's way through the exhaust. Biodiesel creates a problem for this system because it is more viscous and has a higher boiling point than mineral diesel. That means it doesn't vaporise cleanly and unburnt fuel stays in the cylinders, where it can seep past piston rings and dilute the engine oil.
Clearly fuel in the oil isn't a good idea!
My question is twofold - firstly, do my engines run a DPF system? The engine numbers start BXE, and are the VAG 77KW turbodiesels.
Secondly, is this the only problem that can arise from using biodiesel? I have heard that the injectors get a hard time of it, but that some cars have a fuel heater as standard which alleviates the problem (reduces the viscosity of the fuel). I don't really want to get into hacking the fuel system around and installing heaters.
If anyone can help, it's greatly appreciated.
Cheers
If we bunker the fuel on site, we can save between 15 and 20% on our fuel costs.
The biodiesel company say that their fuel is safe to use in our cars (predictably)
as it complies to EN14214. A lot of our vehicles are out of manufacturers warranty, but I decided to see if Skodas technical department had a view on biodiesel.Man from Skoda say NO!!
Now, despite the fact that my cars may no longer need Skoda behind the warranty, quite clearly if the manufacturer will not support this type of fuel, then surely that is because of financial risk - the same risk I could open myself up to if I use the fuel and an engine blows up.
Still being keen to take advantage of the saving on fuel prices, I've continued with my research, and it would seem that manufacturer reluctance usually boils down to modern diesels having a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).
My understanding of a DPF is that it collects nasty hydrocarbons, but needs cleaning out. The way the modern engines do this is by injecting extra fuel into the cylinders after ignition, so that it vaporises and cleans the particulate filter on it's way through the exhaust. Biodiesel creates a problem for this system because it is more viscous and has a higher boiling point than mineral diesel. That means it doesn't vaporise cleanly and unburnt fuel stays in the cylinders, where it can seep past piston rings and dilute the engine oil.
Clearly fuel in the oil isn't a good idea!
My question is twofold - firstly, do my engines run a DPF system? The engine numbers start BXE, and are the VAG 77KW turbodiesels.
Secondly, is this the only problem that can arise from using biodiesel? I have heard that the injectors get a hard time of it, but that some cars have a fuel heater as standard which alleviates the problem (reduces the viscosity of the fuel). I don't really want to get into hacking the fuel system around and installing heaters.
If anyone can help, it's greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Skoda (or any other OEM) will not give the green light to anything except the fuel it left the factory with.
Bio-Diesel (B100) is known to corrode o-rings and hoses etc on older cars. More recent cars use more complex materials for hosing etc and they generally cope much better. Whether this was considered by Skoda before they said no I couldn't tell you. Even then most Bio producers make a mixture of additives to stop corrosion.
Biodiesel has a viscosity of about 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s. The European stuff you are being offered is 4mm²/s where Diesel is about 3, although these are being measured at 40deg C. I cant remember the figures for other temperatures so cant really comment much further that some random trivia.
Modern diesels generally use triple figure fuel pressure with direct injection and as a result have some very tight tolerances in terms of injectors/filters etc. I am not up to speed with modern VAG stuff but check out www.vagcat.com or possibly drop me a message if you want a copy of ETKA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETKA)
On an older more 'Dugga Dugga Diesel' engine I would have no qualms about throwing BD in with some chip fat for good measures. With a more modern engine where the fuel system is much more refined I would not be so hasty to try and save 10%.
In conclusion - Try it on one car and see how it goes. The EN Standard is as good as a Safe Certificate as your going to get for a fuel, especially compared to other standards. If your car(s) will get along with it is another matter.
Sorry to keep rambling on but I have just remembered about the Brazilians. They love their Biofuels and VW/Seat has quite a large presence in the country. May be an idea to look whats different on the Brazilian spec cars to see how they cope.
ETA some actual answers -
ETKA will have the full parts list with diagrams. If there is a DPF you will find it in there.
Without personal experience of your exact vehicle its impossible to give an accurate answer.
Bio-Diesel (B100) is known to corrode o-rings and hoses etc on older cars. More recent cars use more complex materials for hosing etc and they generally cope much better. Whether this was considered by Skoda before they said no I couldn't tell you. Even then most Bio producers make a mixture of additives to stop corrosion.
Biodiesel has a viscosity of about 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s. The European stuff you are being offered is 4mm²/s where Diesel is about 3, although these are being measured at 40deg C. I cant remember the figures for other temperatures so cant really comment much further that some random trivia.
Modern diesels generally use triple figure fuel pressure with direct injection and as a result have some very tight tolerances in terms of injectors/filters etc. I am not up to speed with modern VAG stuff but check out www.vagcat.com or possibly drop me a message if you want a copy of ETKA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETKA)
On an older more 'Dugga Dugga Diesel' engine I would have no qualms about throwing BD in with some chip fat for good measures. With a more modern engine where the fuel system is much more refined I would not be so hasty to try and save 10%.
In conclusion - Try it on one car and see how it goes. The EN Standard is as good as a Safe Certificate as your going to get for a fuel, especially compared to other standards. If your car(s) will get along with it is another matter.
Sorry to keep rambling on but I have just remembered about the Brazilians. They love their Biofuels and VW/Seat has quite a large presence in the country. May be an idea to look whats different on the Brazilian spec cars to see how they cope.
just realised that the above is a relatively useless post
ETA some actual answers -
ETKA will have the full parts list with diagrams. If there is a DPF you will find it in there.
Without personal experience of your exact vehicle its impossible to give an accurate answer.
Edited by CrashTD on Wednesday 3rd February 18:35
KingRichard said:
We've been approached by a biodiesel producer, who made a very compelling case for switching over our fleet to a medium grade of biodiesel - most likely B40 or B60.
If we bunker the fuel on site, we can save between 15 and 20% on our fuel costs.
The biodiesel company say that their fuel is safe to use in our cars (predictably) as it complies to EN14214. A lot of our vehicles are out of manufacturers warranty, but I decided to see if Skodas technical department had a view on biodiesel.
Man from Skoda say NO!!
Now, despite the fact that my cars may no longer need Skoda behind the warranty, quite clearly if the manufacturer will not support this type of fuel, then surely that is because of financial risk - the same risk I could open myself up to if I use the fuel and an engine blows up.
Still being keen to take advantage of the saving on fuel prices, I've continued with my research, and it would seem that manufacturer reluctance usually boils down to modern diesels having a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).
My understanding of a DPF is that it collects nasty hydrocarbons, but needs cleaning out. The way the modern engines do this is by injecting extra fuel into the cylinders after ignition, so that it vaporises and cleans the particulate filter on it's way through the exhaust. Biodiesel creates a problem for this system because it is more viscous and has a higher boiling point than mineral diesel. That means it doesn't vaporise cleanly and unburnt fuel stays in the cylinders, where it can seep past piston rings and dilute the engine oil.
Clearly fuel in the oil isn't a good idea!
My question is twofold - firstly, do my engines run a DPF system? The engine numbers start BXE, and are the VAG 77KW turbodiesels.
Secondly, is this the only problem that can arise from using biodiesel? I have heard that the injectors get a hard time of it, but that some cars have a fuel heater as standard which alleviates the problem (reduces the viscosity of the fuel). I don't really want to get into hacking the fuel system around and installing heaters.
If anyone can help, it's greatly appreciated.
Cheers
There are a number of technical issues and explanations you need to be aware of....If we bunker the fuel on site, we can save between 15 and 20% on our fuel costs.
The biodiesel company say that their fuel is safe to use in our cars (predictably)
as it complies to EN14214. A lot of our vehicles are out of manufacturers warranty, but I decided to see if Skodas technical department had a view on biodiesel.Man from Skoda say NO!!
Now, despite the fact that my cars may no longer need Skoda behind the warranty, quite clearly if the manufacturer will not support this type of fuel, then surely that is because of financial risk - the same risk I could open myself up to if I use the fuel and an engine blows up.
Still being keen to take advantage of the saving on fuel prices, I've continued with my research, and it would seem that manufacturer reluctance usually boils down to modern diesels having a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).
My understanding of a DPF is that it collects nasty hydrocarbons, but needs cleaning out. The way the modern engines do this is by injecting extra fuel into the cylinders after ignition, so that it vaporises and cleans the particulate filter on it's way through the exhaust. Biodiesel creates a problem for this system because it is more viscous and has a higher boiling point than mineral diesel. That means it doesn't vaporise cleanly and unburnt fuel stays in the cylinders, where it can seep past piston rings and dilute the engine oil.
Clearly fuel in the oil isn't a good idea!
My question is twofold - firstly, do my engines run a DPF system? The engine numbers start BXE, and are the VAG 77KW turbodiesels.
Secondly, is this the only problem that can arise from using biodiesel? I have heard that the injectors get a hard time of it, but that some cars have a fuel heater as standard which alleviates the problem (reduces the viscosity of the fuel). I don't really want to get into hacking the fuel system around and installing heaters.
If anyone can help, it's greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Fuel often gets into diesel engine oil and it isn't a problem if the diesel is made from crude oil. The process of refining makes the fuel miscible in quantities up to about 5%. When a vehicle goes into regeneration it takes on more fuel into the oil as it migrates past the ring pack, but afterwards the lighter oil fractions (from the fuel) boil off so it doesn't become an issue.
With biodiesel the refining process tends to be very variable. Making it consistently is a problem. The biggest issue is fatty acid esters / triglycerides not being dealt with correctly. When these get into the oil they chemically combine and cause sludge. People that have seen it will know what I mean that it feels like a thick (2mm) tacky layer of almost dry black latex paint. That will kill an engine.
Fuel is used as a diesel lubricant for diesel fuel pumps & injectors. The components are designed around using fuels of a certain lubricity. They might be able to tolerate occasional drops in fuel quality but repeated tankfuls of fuel that doesn't lubricate as well as it should will bring on early component replacement.
I don't know if your biofuel would be able to lubricate adequately for the components you have. It might - but then again it might not. A fuel heater will do little or nothing apart from deal with gelled fuel. And properly refined fuel in a temperate place like Britain should almost never get to that state anyway.
Regarding the DPF biofuel produced soot tends to have a higher oxygen content and tends to burn off faster than dino diesel.
I think the issue really centres around the regeneration related oil diluton and whether the fuel injection equipment can survive.
If you are buying a lot of fuel then financially there are still benefits to be gained. You could look at undertaking a trial on a few vehicles and using a fuel & oil sampling & monitoring service to see whether your supplier is delivering fuel that is truly meeting the standard and whether the regeneration related dilution is causing problems.
as you can see there are some very informed answers above, here is my 2 pence worth.......is the diesel a common-rail or Pumpe-Duse (VW-Bosch) based injection system.......yes = DO NOT RUN BIO DIESEL, the stuff is fools gold and it will cause you big pain in the long term, you will be at 50% risk of an engine failure, I work in the powertrain design business and I have seen nothing but tears associated with people trying to save cost via running that 5hit. It will f
k your high pressure pump in no time, then if you store the car for only a few weeks it will clog up the fuel system with fatty deposits........if you really want to save fuel cost, keep your tyres pumped up to the correct pressures and send your drivers on a driving course which teaches them how to drive econiomically, and not to thrash the nuts out of the vehicle.....believe me, you will save a lot of fuel cost that way.
Also - Bosch have gone public many times and stated to all auto manufacturers that they are not willing to entertain bio-diesel blends of more than 5% when mixed with regular diesel......because its such poor quality in terms of lubricity for the pump and injectors, and at 5% blend, you will be saving not alot.....mixes of B40 and B60 are just plain scary.
k your high pressure pump in no time, then if you store the car for only a few weeks it will clog up the fuel system with fatty deposits........if you really want to save fuel cost, keep your tyres pumped up to the correct pressures and send your drivers on a driving course which teaches them how to drive econiomically, and not to thrash the nuts out of the vehicle.....believe me, you will save a lot of fuel cost that way.Also - Bosch have gone public many times and stated to all auto manufacturers that they are not willing to entertain bio-diesel blends of more than 5% when mixed with regular diesel......because its such poor quality in terms of lubricity for the pump and injectors, and at 5% blend, you will be saving not alot.....mixes of B40 and B60 are just plain scary.
Edited by knighty on Monday 8th February 16:31
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